Member Since: 17 Sep 2009
Location: Sitting Down
Posts: 2232
Not sure on BMM but think so.
CFF file will require changingD4 Landmark MY16 Santorini Black THE LAST
D4 HSE MY12 Marmais Teal: Gone. Missed a lot!
Freelander 2 SD HSE MY11 Silver:Thankfully gone.
D4 HSE MY11 Silver: Gone missed !
Range Rover Sport MY06 HSE Buck Blue: Gone missed!
Discovery D2 TD5 Facelift MY Red Gone Missed!
Discovery D2 TD5 Cobalt Blue: Gone Missed!
Discovery D1 Auto Oxford Blue Not missed at all!
Discovery D1 Avalon Blue First LR! missed!
Now demoted to a VW
Last edited by lespes on 2nd Feb 2014 2:18 pm. Edited 1 time in total
1st Feb 2014 8:44 pm
chopcat
Member Since: 08 Apr 2013
Location: Pembrokeshire
Posts: 478
How might one chnge the ccf file? As mine has never been right since i have had it with either the old original battery or the new agm one. And how does one find the right code.
And..is the battery monitoring module a swap or a dealer job?
This post is useful regading the process at the dealers
The battery monitoring module (which is connected to the black terminal on the battery) reset requires a diagnostic plug in I think. It would be great if there was reset button, but that would be too easy wouldn't it! Ive asked on the other thread which diagnostic systems can perform the BMS reset.Previously:
2005 D3 2.7 TDV6 S
1984 90 2.25 Petrol CSW
1992 90 200TDi Hard Top
1995 Discovery ES 300TDi
2003 90 TD5 Truck Cab
2nd Feb 2014 10:31 am
chopcat
Member Since: 08 Apr 2013
Location: Pembrokeshire
Posts: 478
So whilst we wait to get the bmm changed and the cff updated, does this mean that the battery is not charging properly or that the monitoring is reading incorrect voltage and giving spurious warnings?
Just trying to avoid breaking down in france next week.
......oh ...just popping out for some jump start cables...
Ccmay the odds be ever in your favor
3rd Feb 2014 8:00 am
Dudleydisco
Member Since: 20 Jun 2014
Location: York
Posts: 853
This battery problem seems to be quite a common problem
On my MY13 D4, (which has the LR Exide 90Ah AGM battery), I plugged it into my CTEK5 overnight and in the morning I had a full set of lights indicating that it was fully charged. I measured the voltage and got 12.55V. According to the chart posted earlier in this topic, that indicates about 92% charged.
The next day I drove it for about an hour, then left it overnight. I've just checked the voltage, and it's giving me 12.33V - indicating about 70% charge.
For those in the know, is this what I should expect from a 1 year old vehicle, or do I need to get this looked at by a dealer?D4 MY14 XXV - RLD/IID BT
D4 MY13 HSE Lux - RLD/IID BT
P38 RR - Sad parting
110 - Even sadder parting
S3 88" - Still going strong after 23 years of ownership
25th Jun 2014 11:30 am
drivesafe
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
Hi dudleydisco, and this is a very rough explanation of how batteries respond to charging.
What you have observed is the battery charger charging the battery capacity that can be charged.
This may sound like double dutch but both the chart I posted up and the way a battery charger works, is based on the State of Charge ( SoC ) of the battery.
The SoC of a battery is the measurement of CHARGEABLE capacity of a battery but this is a catch in that as a battery ages or if it is not regularly conditioned, the amount of the battery that can actually be charged diminishes.
When you charged your battery, your charger charged the area of the battery that could still be charged and way to clarify this is as follows.
Theoretically, when you buy a battery, for example, a 100Ah battery ( Ah stands for Ampere Hours ), again, theoretically, if you applied a 1 amp load to that battery, say a light globe, in theory you will be able to power that globe for 100 hours before the battery is totally flat.
In your case, the battery is down on USABLE capacity by around 30%, which would mean the same globe could only be power for about 30 hours.
Note, this still gives you heap of power to start your motor.
Your charger can only charge the capacity that remains in the battery, so you have observed the results of a battery that is badly down on capacity.
Again also Note, your alternator is also restricted to only being able to charge the usable capacity that remains in the battery.
Not all is lost though.
If you continue to charge your battery over night, you may very well regain much, if not all of the lost capacity.
The trick is to let the battery settle for a few hours after you arrive home and then put your charger on.
The charger will go through it’s charge cycle then it will go into float.
It’s the float stage of the charge that can by use to revive a battery, but it will only revive a very small portion of the battery at a time.
Once your achieve the best possible charge state carrying out numerous charge cycles, you will only need to give the battery a decent charge about once a month.
It can be a lot of work, but it’s surprising how main supposedly stuffed batteries can be brought back to decent charged state and end up with a much long life span.2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
25th Jun 2014 12:35 pm
Dudleydisco
Member Since: 20 Jun 2014
Location: York
Posts: 853
Thanks so much for the reply. Having read a lot of what both you and Robbie have posted here, my understanding of batteries has come on a lot, so your points make perfect sense.
I'll just keep putting it on charge every night, and hopefully get some of the capacity back.
One other question for you - is it the amount of time the battery is on float - i.e. go through 1 charge cycle and leave it on float for a week, or the number of charge cycles i.e. put it on charge every night, but take it off charge during the day, that will recover the lost capacity best? Sorry if that's a stupid question I'll certainly give it a try, and if I do manage to restore the capacity, will I need to get the BMS reset so that the new capacity is recognised by the alternator/charge system?
I do still think that it's a bit of a let down to have to be doing this on a £60K+ vehicle that's only just over a year old. Still, as they say in the advert - 'It's because it's worth it' D4 MY14 XXV - RLD/IID BT
D4 MY13 HSE Lux - RLD/IID BT
P38 RR - Sad parting
110 - Even sadder parting
S3 88" - Still going strong after 23 years of ownership
25th Jun 2014 1:45 pm
drivesafe
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
Not a stupid question at all and I should have posted more details.
For the best results, where practical, leave the charger on float for for around 8 to 10 hours then remove the charger.
While you can leave the charger on all the time, in float, but after the initial 8 to 10 hours, you will just be maintaining the battery at what ever capacity it is at.
By removing the charger after the 8 to 10 hours on float, and again, if practical, leaving the battery to settle for 8 or more hours, the next time you turn the charge on, it will first go through the normal charge cycle before going back to float.
The reason for the settling period is because the chemical reaction in all lead acid batteries will up to 24 hours to settle after the last charge or discharge. So letting the battery settle for a while between charges seems to give the best recovery results.
This initial charge cycle then “stirs up†the chemical reaction again and the the float mode conditions the battery.
Let us know how it goes.
BTW, this is a problem common to all vehicles, not just LRs2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
25th Jun 2014 7:17 pm
Dudleydisco
Member Since: 20 Jun 2014
Location: York
Posts: 853
Thanks again for the advice. I've got the vehicle hooked up to the CTEK MXS 10 again tonight, so I'll leave it charging and then disconnect in the morning. I won't be using the Disco tomorrow, so I can leave the Connect lead attached and take a remote reading with my DVM same time tomorrow. Doing it this way means that I don't even have to wake the car up by opening a door. 12.55V is my target to beat, so I'll let you know what reading I get!
I'm hoping that this procedure works, and if so, can I ask again if you think I'll need to get the BMS reset?D4 MY14 XXV - RLD/IID BT
D4 MY13 HSE Lux - RLD/IID BT
P38 RR - Sad parting
110 - Even sadder parting
S3 88" - Still going strong after 23 years of ownership
Hi dudleydisco, and this is a very rough explanation of how batteries respond to charging.
What you have observed is the battery charger charging the battery capacity that can be charged.
This may sound like double dutch but both the chart I posted up and the way a battery charger works, is based on the State of Charge ( SoC ) of the battery.
The SoC of a battery is the measurement of CHARGEABLE capacity of a battery but this is a catch in that as a battery ages or if it is not regularly conditioned, the amount of the battery that can actually be charged diminishes.
When you charged your battery, your charger charged the area of the battery that could still be charged and way to clarify this is as follows.
Theoretically, when you buy a battery, for example, a 100Ah battery ( Ah stands for Ampere Hours ), again, theoretically, if you applied a 1 amp load to that battery, say a light globe, in theory you will be able to power that globe for 100 hours before the battery is totally flat.
In your case, the battery is down on USABLE capacity by around 30%, which would mean the same globe could only be power for about 30 hours.
Note, this still gives you heap of power to start your motor.
Your charger can only charge the capacity that remains in the battery, so you have observed the results of a battery that is badly down on capacity.
Again also Note, your alternator is also restricted to only being able to charge the usable capacity that remains in the battery.
Not all is lost though.
If you continue to charge your battery over night, you may very well regain much, if not all of the lost capacity.
The trick is to let the battery settle for a few hours after you arrive home and then put your charger on.
The charger will go through it’s charge cycle then it will go into float.
It’s the float stage of the charge that can by use to revive a battery, but it will only revive a very small portion of the battery at a time.
Once your achieve the best possible charge state carrying out numerous charge cycles, you will only need to give the battery a decent charge about once a month.
It can be a lot of work, but it’s surprising how main supposedly stuffed batteries can be brought back to decent charged state and end up with a much long life span.
Do C-TEK's work this way ?
& is all you have said true for the AGM's we are now getting ?BREXIT - done properly.
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Save the Dipstick Flagbearer-keep it simple, less likely to fail campaign-agenda items:Starting Handles, Acetylene Lamps.
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FL2 has DIPSTICK..."real comfort in rear seats"
VW Golf wondermobile (?)..has real DIPSTICK
Morris Minor..original DIPSTICK technology..and a real KEY.
25th Jun 2014 8:49 pm
Dudleydisco
Member Since: 20 Jun 2014
Location: York
Posts: 853
As far as I'm aware, the answer is yes.
In the good old days, battery chargers were just a transformer and a rectifier that reduced 240V AC to 13-14V DC. The CTEK is a 'Switched mode' unit that has various stages in it's charge cycle.
1. Desulphation - Pulsing current and voltage to remove sulphates from the plates.
2. Soft Start - Test if the battery can accept charge.
3. Bulk - charging with maximum current until approx. 80% SoC.
4. Absorption - charging with declining current to maximise 100% capacity.
5. Analyse - Tests if battery can hold charge.
7. Float - Trickle charge - low current at 13.6V.
On mine, an AGM battery, it goes through 1 and 2 almost immediately. The bulk charge 3 lasted approx. 90 mins and we're now onto Stage 4. I'm using the AGM program on the CTEK.D4 MY14 XXV - RLD/IID BT
D4 MY13 HSE Lux - RLD/IID BT
P38 RR - Sad parting
110 - Even sadder parting
S3 88" - Still going strong after 23 years of ownership
25th Jun 2014 9:08 pm
drivesafe
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
Re: Is this true for a C-TEK ?
BLFarrar wrote:
Do C-TEK's work this way ?
& is all you have said true for the AGM's we are now getting ?
Hi BLFarrar, this works for all lead acid batteries but there is a difference in the charging of wet cell ( Calcium/Calcium ) batteries and most AGMs, as Dudleydisco has posted.
The cycle voltages are different for Wet Cell batteries, which can tolerate voltages in excess of 15.5v ( for short periods ), while most AGMs have maximum tolerance of around 14.7v.
As to the AGMs being used as cranking batteries in newer Land Rovers, as I have posted before, I have no idea of their tolerances as the info is not being made available by the battery manufacturer. So I would suggest you stick to AGM charge settings when charging the AGM cranking batteries.
The effect of “soak†charging, leaving the battery on float for up to 10 hours, works with all forms of lead acid batteries and you can use any brand of multi stage battery charger.2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
25th Jun 2014 10:08 pm
davidedwardmawer
Member Since: 11 Oct 2012
Location: Gironde
Posts: 174
I have a newly fitted second battery - yellow top AGM - with T-max split charge system. My charger is a CTEK 7A with connection to the original Bosch battery.
Presumably charging will continue as before, attached to the original battery, and no need to charge the AGM individually. (Noticed some spotlight relay clicking whilst charging this way).
So no need to set charger for AGMs or is there? Your comments welcomed.33370 Fargues Saint Hilaire
25th Jun 2014 10:23 pm
drivesafe
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
Hi David and Yellowtop AGMs are the exception, because they will tolerate 15.1v while charging, so just check your battery charger's BOOST cycle’s maximum voltage is not above that and you should be fine.2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
25th Jun 2014 10:32 pm
vs2
Member Since: 11 Dec 2013
Location: NZ
Posts: 55
Hi Tim. I have your system with the Optima Yellow Top. Something I don't understand, ie when you charge multiple AA batteries in a charger they are charged individually by the charger, so when I charge the D4 through the 12S socket with my Ctek mxs5 how does the charger charge both batteries perfectly when it is not charging them individually. Cheers.Black pack, Traxide D4-1U with jumpstart, Whispbar Rack, Nanocom, 285/50r20 Cooper LTZ's, Side steps, NZ spec-no DPF.
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I'll certainly give it a try, and if I do manage to restore the capacity, will I need to get the BMS reset so that the new capacity is recognised by the alternator/charge system?
