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10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
  
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Brendan, what facts do you want? generally all most potential clients want to know are:-
Power
Torque
Cost
Warranty implications
What happens if a LR dealer overwrites
beyond that, most dont care how it's achieved and as mentioned by many customers of all brands, they are generally very happy with their choice
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 18th May 2007 1:21 pm |
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bkehoe
Member Since: 25 Feb 2006
Location: Wexford
Posts: 1481
 
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Well I can't claim to be an expert on anything here, and like any average customer have to hope that the supplier of whichever tune I've got on my current vehicle and my next one will have the customers best interests in mind with regard to minimising any extra risk of premature wear, etc on engine components.
I'm sure I speak for quite a few people here when I say that the constant bickering over which tune is best is getting a bit tiring, and this isn't aimed at you 10 - it's the whole thing. So you say, don't read the posts! But it's cropping up everywhere now, and I think some kind of compromise needs to be made to settle things down a bit. 
In my opinion what needs to happen is an independent comparison between tunes for a start. When I say independent I really mean a series of comparisons between tunes on the one vehicle. It's no good comparing 0-60 times between different vehicles with different tunes in different conditions.
So take one D3, work out a series of tests, e.g. 0-60 on a track, 50-70, etc, even a dyno test if possible. Possibly MPG at a constant few speeds as well.
Perform the tests on it as standard, and then with each different tune, TC, JE, TT, Dastek, resistor in a box, etc.
Then make the results of these tests available on the forum so members can make an informed choice based on facts rather than opinions. If they want to make a decison based on opinions then fine thats their choice and some peoples opinions are worth a lot, but at the end of the day it's facts and figures that matter. Obviously other issues like the distance to the local dealer are going to affect peoples decision as well, so I don't see why making these facts available could suddenly result in a massive loss of business for company X or Y.
Unfortunately I realistically don't see this happening, though perhaps I could propose that there may be some D3 members willing to contribute towards expenses involved in doing these comparisons?
The other thing I've been wondering about for a while is the way TT claim to provide an individual map for each vehicle. Can you tell us what exactly is read from the ECU that influences the maps other than the current LR software versions? I only ask because Turbochip used to do the same thing in the past - read the ECU, email the files off to some guy sat in front of a computer who then modified the files and sent them back. This is how they did my previous TD5. But as far as I could tell the mods were only made based on the current map, software versions, etc on the ECU. Now what they've done is taken every possible version and combinations of software and maps that the vehicles could possibly have, and when the Autologix unit is connected to the vehicle, it establishes the software versions, and then picks the appropiate map from its library of tunes files. Any time LR release new software, TC responds and revises their software. At least that is how it's been explained to me anyway. IE - 05 D3 TDV6 HSE - Zambezi Silver
SA - 07 VW Golf TDI - White - Sold!
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| 18th May 2007 1:48 pm |
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n1cktdv6
Member Since: 20 Mar 2007
Location: Warrington
Posts: 1161
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Completely unnecessary quote removed!
Well said  it is all getting a bit my dad's harder than yours. Was it slimer who suggested a commerical section to the site ? D4 HSE....Probably, but not quite decided yet.
3.6 TDV8 Vogue
XC90 SE Lux
A8 Quattro TDi
D3 SE
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| 18th May 2007 2:18 pm |
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DiscoDunc
Member Since: 08 May 2006
Location: Bristol
Posts: 16390
  
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Ding, Ding.....
Just hold on second while I go and get the popcorn and some beer.
I do like these sort of discussions Duncan
-----------------------------------------------------
If I'd known I was going to be so thirsty this morning I'd have drunk more beer last night.
FFRR Autobiography 4.4 SDV8 MY17
D4 HSE MY13 SOLD
FFRR 3.6 Vogue TDV8 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D4 SE TECH MY15 SOLD
D4 XS MY12 SOLD
D4 HSE MY10 SOLD
D3 HSE MY06 - Re-Cycled Worldwide
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| 18th May 2007 3:00 pm |
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10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
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bkehoe wrote:The other thing I've been wondering about for a while is the way TT claim to provide an individual map for each vehicle. Can you tell us what exactly is read from the ECU that influences the maps other than the current LR software versions? I only ask because Turbochip used to do the same thing in the past - read the ECU, email the files off to some guy sat in front of a computer who then modified the files and sent them back. This is how they did my previous TD5. But as far as I could tell the mods were only made based on the current map, software versions, etc on the ECU. Now what they've done is taken every possible version and combinations of software and maps that the vehicles could possibly have, and when the Autologix unit is connected to the vehicle, it establishes the software versions, and then picks the appropiate map from its library of tunes files. Any time LR release new software, TC responds and revises their software. At least that is how it's been explained to me anyway.
Brendan, the process is very similar, the SW version & checksum is recognised along with the various offsets (which are stored in a different area of the ECU) that make up the 'adaptiveness', this data is then modified 'server side' and written to the ECU The maps are unique to each vehicle and are compiled for each vehicle - no two maps are exactly the same. I'm obviously not going to discuss the technology or method of how this is achieved in the open
The interface works essentially in the same way as Autologic in that it reads the SW version & checksum, what differs is the way the remap 'overlay' is applied and the degree of flexibility in the overlay itself
Other than that, I too am with the sniping and swiping 
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| 18th May 2007 3:25 pm |
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ADB
Member Since: 25 Jan 2007
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 5
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What adaptations does your tool read?
The adaptations are not stored in the FLASH. As far as I am aware, your tool does only read the FLASH so I was surprised to read that you modify with respect to ADAPTIVE data.
Furthurmore, why would your tuner modify the data with regard to adaptations? After all, they are generated by the ECU to fine tune engine running against the standard data.
Of course, the adaptations may have adapted to a fault that exists within the drivetrain, so tuning in this case could be dangerous.
As I have said in my previous posts, most tuners (download or plug in) have achieved similar performance gains with their products. Different products will suit different customers.
ADB
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| 18th May 2007 6:29 pm |
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Dom Harvey
Lord of the Four Fingers
Member Since: 15 Apr 2005
Location: Dorset
Posts: 7454
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FFS will you give it a rest, we're getting a bit bored of all this, its apparent that its just another attempt to try and provoke.  2004 Discovery 3 - gone
2006 Discovery 3 - gone
2008 Discovery 3 GS - gone
2011 Freelander LE Special Edition - gone
2007 Discovery 3 XS - gone
2012 Discovery 4 GS - current
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| 18th May 2007 6:54 pm |
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10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
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ADB wrote:Of course, the adaptations may have adapted to a fault that exists within the drivetrain, so tuning in this case could be dangerous
 stick with the diagnostics matey you clearly don't understand the Discovery 3 / RRS to make a statement like that! 
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| 18th May 2007 6:54 pm |
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simon
Member Since: 11 Jan 2005
Location: Shropshire
Posts: 18296
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Dom Harvey wrote:FFS will you give it a rest, we're getting a bit bored of all this, its apparent that its just another attempt to try and provoke.
And garnering free ad space this way is taking the mick.
As a long standing forum member it pees (shame we have an auto censor now) me off that this thread appears to have been started for the sole purpose of baiting and then trashing another long standing forum member.
All because he has a competing product which may or may not be better than yours.
Either become a sponsor or run your own forum please.
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| 18th May 2007 7:11 pm |
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bkehoe
Member Since: 25 Feb 2006
Location: Wexford
Posts: 1481
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10, can you tell us what is used to adapt the maps? I didn't think the engine ECU adapted to driving style, but to engine wear, component performance, etc, so I'm just wondering what the point is if it's already adapted to the current condition of the various components? Of course I could and may be completely wrong, and if so I'm sure you'll say so! IE - 05 D3 TDV6 HSE - Zambezi Silver
SA - 07 VW Golf TDI - White - Sold!
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| 18th May 2007 7:13 pm |
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Dom Harvey
Lord of the Four Fingers
Member Since: 15 Apr 2005
Location: Dorset
Posts: 7454
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bkehoe, why don't you PM TFC for that info instead of perpetuating this 'debate'  2004 Discovery 3 - gone
2006 Discovery 3 - gone
2008 Discovery 3 GS - gone
2011 Freelander LE Special Edition - gone
2007 Discovery 3 XS - gone
2012 Discovery 4 GS - current
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| 18th May 2007 7:26 pm |
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wiggs
Member Since: 03 Sep 2006
Location: Manchester
Posts: 14368
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I for one am quite interested in this debate ...as a potential buyer of one of these products its nice to know what im spending my hard earned money on.
And surely if its bothering you so much then dont read this topic !!! G4 Gone ...but not forgotten
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| 18th May 2007 8:01 pm |
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n1cktdv6
Member Since: 20 Mar 2007
Location: Warrington
Posts: 1161
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Wiggs,
I know what you mean, you need to get the right info before commiting to any product, knowing which one is the best is difficult as the D3 is a pretty new car for tuners. I think the thing that is causing friction the most is the fact that the key players in this are owners/reps/distributors of the products and are using this user forum as a marketing tool, which I am sure most wouldn't mind if it wasn't being forced so much across the site in many other posts.
If you like, I work near manchester, you can have a run out in mine to give you an idea. PM me if interested.
Nick D4 HSE....Probably, but not quite decided yet.
3.6 TDV8 Vogue
XC90 SE Lux
A8 Quattro TDi
D3 SE
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| 18th May 2007 8:09 pm |
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DG
Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50952
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Nick, sponsors of the site are permitted to market freely ...others like our fiend Gerry however are not 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
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| 18th May 2007 8:12 pm |
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bkehoe
Member Since: 25 Feb 2006
Location: Wexford
Posts: 1481
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I already have TC. When a new product comes along that claims to be better, is it not ok to try to find out why? All I want are some facts and figures - as I said above; why can't there be a review and comparison done between the different products in a controlled environment? Companies submit physical products to be reviewed by people all the time, so why haven't the tuning companies offered - if anything it should be easy for them? Yes there have been offers to drive other vehicles, but what use is that?
When the time comes for me to get my next D3 chipped, my first action will be to look at the facts and figures (if they exist, and I'll be taking advertised figures with a pinch of salt - e.g. only recently someone commented on how Autologic and TC say different things about their tunes even though they're supposed to be the same), and if that information isn't available, then I'll have no reason to change supplier, as I'll just assume that all the products are the same and go with the most convenient option (which is TC at the moment).
I also don't see why I need to keep defending my wish to enquire about these things. For some reason I think if the roles were reversed things would be different. IE - 05 D3 TDV6 HSE - Zambezi Silver
SA - 07 VW Golf TDI - White - Sold!
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| 18th May 2007 8:24 pm |
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