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character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
  
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chrisbowler wrote:However, I do feel that a specialist diagnostic tool is much more than part of the normal garage service - it is a facility over and above any other non specialist garage and as such needs to be used professionally - it is not just for clearing faults and reset service lights.
I would be interested how a Main Agent Dealership could justify the charges it makes on the hourly rate when an independant specialist can survive on 1/2 or lower than the dealer prices and still produce the results when needed. After all a 13mm ratchet spanner is the same the world over!!! and if we say that the diagnostic tool is just a garage tool then surely the labour rate is the more logical thing to be worried about.
Chris Bowler
Chris, a bit of advise, stop worrying about the competition and concentrate on continuing to build yer business reputation over and above what "they do" otherwise you'll go down the wrong path - think how you can use something you already have, have already costed for and that can bring in new clients that might have visited "the others".
The kit you have invested good money for has not moneytry value outside of your garage doors BUT has a huge potential to generate business for you if used in the right way along with a transparent approach to charging.
From a personal point of view, I used to do a 150 mile round trip to have my D3 serviced, never had any issues, always did what they were asked of and I too agreed to what they asked of me, however the moment they started to consider themselves "above" that pedestal they had created, I was off to someone else who have been superb and have gone very much out of their way to be customer focused and transparent in their charges.
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 16th Jan 2011 1:06 am |
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chrisbowler
Member Since: 30 Jan 2009
Location: UK WALES
Posts: 176
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Advice taken - thanks
However, For the record, the effective use of a diagnostic tool is why the customer goes to a specialist - Dealer or Indy - Any standard garage can do the service and mechanical stuff, but the experience built up by the specialist very often saves the customer money as the problem is resolved quicker with the right use of the tools.
Anyway have you seen the time!!! Look forward to continuing this thread and seeing other views to this excellent subject - nice one BRUCEZCUTTS for this one!!!
Chris Bowler Chris Bowler
D3 2005 EXPEDITION
D2 Challenge Vehicle
300 TDi Spare car
107" TD5 Comp Safari Motor
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| 16th Jan 2011 1:17 am |
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character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
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agreed, time for a coffee and walk the hounds before bed - good thread, enjoyed it, you too pete
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| 16th Jan 2011 1:21 am |
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ron3005
Member Since: 15 Mar 2010
Location: Feltham
Posts: 314
 
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This is'nt just a LR problem most of all new cars have to be plugged in . In my case i was charged for the job +parts and they also charged me for using the diagnostic equipment sorry he will not be seeing my car again as I beleive it was wrong to charge me hours + parts + equipment .
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| 16th Jan 2011 1:23 am |
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AndrewW
Member Since: 06 Aug 2007
Location: Saddleworth
Posts: 2302
 
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character - I've been lucky enough not to need that sort of assistance, so I shouldn't comment, but it seems to me there is a conflict between dividing fixed business costs between all customers and just between those that create the cost.
As an example, if electronic diagnostic equipment costs £8000 to buy and £800 a year to keep up to date, do you spread that business cost over all customers' bills, including the guy who just has an oil change? Or do you let the oil change punter have a cheaper ride and charge slightly higher rates on diagnosing a fancy electronic 2.7 tonner  ??
I'm asking, here - I don't know the answer! - Me? I'm just a lazy layabout of a retired doctor  with no experience in real business. Plenty of hassle, but no bills to send out, no punters to chase....
Andrew 2006 D3 finally swapped for a 2016 D4 Graphite in Graphite grey. No mods
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| 16th Jan 2011 2:20 am |
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SteveNorman
Member Since: 14 Oct 2005
Location: Somerset
Posts: 1144
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Possibly a likely reason for seeing a 'diagnostic charge' is the way some customers present themselves & their vehicle to the garage.
"I have these lights on"
"Ok, would you like me to have a look?"
"Yes, but how much will it be?"
The real answer is I have no idea before I look, as it could be a simple thing I've already come across, or an obscure problem requiring the loom to be stripped out, & many components removed to do it.
"well sir, we would need to look at the vehicle to see what the job is likely to entale"
"But you just plug that computer in, how much are you going to charge me for that?"
So I am in a situation where I have to provide a fixed cost before I even see the vehicle.
Nobody wants to be ripped off. The customer wants to know a cost because he doesn't trust me yet, I don't want to work for free, as I don't trust him yet.
So I usually suggest that an initial session would be 1hrs labour (£45+vat), which would buy him up to an hour. Which (& I analyse my hours spent carefully, inclduing the lost ones) in honesty it's difficult to form any opinion in under that. At that point the job is usually diagnosed & the solution offered.
Now some jobs take under the hour, but others take over, but in real terms, for a correct assesment an hour will be needed to diagnose without making a mistake (as what is shown by the equipment has to be proven, not just it says this, we'd best bolt a new one on).
If the job requires a new component & extra labour for that, then it's extra, if it's something that is simple, like a compressor requiring renewal, then most of it would get sorted within your first hour charge.
I am not in a position to refund that first hour if you have the repair, because it would be an hour of my time spent not chargeable, & after all it is a business.
Once a customer trusts me, the cost to fix before I see it goes out the window, as he knows I will fix it, not charge any unnecessary charges, & actually the whole job works out cheaper as there is less time spent overall.
So the 'diagnostic tool' is just another tool, & here, although those looking for a fixed cost would be charged a minimum of an hour, it isn't a separate charge, just a labour charge.
I am lucky as I don't advertise, is all word of mouth, so the customer has an element of trust before they ring, thus it makes everyone's job easier.
As for should 'this equipment' or that be charged out a different rates, hmmm, difficult, The correct transmission jack for the D3 costs over £3000, which is sitting waiting in the workshop, the updated wheel alignment equipment which I've just bought (so I can do the job quicker, thus make less money per job!!!) has just cost over £10,000.
The more equipment bought, the higher the rate goes up, but the less hours the job takes to be completed.
It has to be an hourly rate, but those just wanting an oil change lose out.
Those wanting the car to be looked after as a whole gain.
My advice is, find someone you trust, & accept that he is in business to make a living, & not strive to cut all prices to a minimum & he will then trust you & be working with you.
Regards
Steve
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| 16th Jan 2011 8:42 am |
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chrisbowler
Member Since: 30 Jan 2009
Location: UK WALES
Posts: 176
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SteveNorman - I totally agree -
I have in the past had to explain to customers that they are in effect hiring the diagnostic tool with a man who knows how to use it - bit like the wheel alignment system - without the knowledge then the tool is nothing. That then justifies the time spent ( 99% time less that the analogue methods) and therefore a saving and if that becomes the labour charge for me to use the tool then, yes all we charged is a hire charge for the machine with an operator.
With some cars ( P38 suspension - we deal with 1 fault several times and need to use the tool on more than 1 occation - there is only 1 charge but until you get a picture of what is going on on the car, you cannot identify what may or may not need changing.
Chris Bowler Chris Bowler
D3 2005 EXPEDITION
D2 Challenge Vehicle
300 TDi Spare car
107" TD5 Comp Safari Motor
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| 16th Jan 2011 10:03 am |
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bellautos
Member Since: 02 Feb 2006
Location: NorthYorkshire
Posts: 2532
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SteveNorman wrote:
My advice is, find someone you trust, & accept that he is in business to make a living, & not strive to cut all prices to a minimum & he will then trust you & be working with you.
Regards
Steve
A good statement Steve.
Afterall we the garage want the job's we do to go as smoothly and as quickly as possibile to keep the customer happy which in turn keeps him coming back for years to come, and hopefully by word of mouth helps the business grow.
I have quite a few customers who just drop their car of with me and say fix it, with no questions on price with no questions when they get the bill they just pay it and go.
Its not that they are rich and they dont care about the repair cost, its because they know i will only charge for whats needed and nothing else and when i do charge its at a fare price for the work done and time taken.
Infact these types of customers/jobs are far less stressfull and are more efficently dealt with from start to finish that the charged time spent is generally less than if it were a hastle job from the beginning.
Its not because he gets a special price i just randomly made up, its because the whole job flows so smoothly from start to end without having to justify your self every time you make a decision or order parts and the time spent is actually less of which he gains in his labour bill.
Now im not saying everyone should not ask for a price for their car to be repaired because you have a right to know the final bill if its exstimatable at that time,
but as Steve says above get a garage you trust and let them do their job without question of why charge this and why charge that and what you will probabally find is that the bills drop in price.
Because the garage can be more efficent in its work if left alone and trusted, without you on the phone every 2 mins stating it could be this or that wrong with the car and that you have read on the D3 forum a suspention TSB and it could be a Compressor fault ohh and you have ordered one from Ebay and it will be here tomorrow lol.
Last but not least while its on my mind, one pet hate of mine and many other independants and dealers for that matter ill share with you which i hope you can understand my reasoning is .
A customer who rings up every 1hr asking if his car is ready GGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRR of course im polite and say over and over on every call , no sir illl call you as soon as its done.
i cant post what id really like to say lol, what some customers dont realise is that we the garage dont want your car stuck in our garage just as much as you dont, so again let us do our job , sit tight and wait for your call 
Pete
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| 16th Jan 2011 12:09 pm |
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discodays
Member Since: 28 Nov 2010
Location: southend, essex
Posts: 52
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what a great topic, as a heating engineer i find that this subject is not confined to vehicle repairs, but most of the guys not least pete have it so right,...i just wished i lived in yorkshire Buck blue, auto, hse, Loving it !!!!!!!!!
i ain't loaded, paid over the odds, but hell this is the B******s
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| 16th Jan 2011 5:34 pm |
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futureproof
Member Since: 02 Jan 2011
Location: Uk
Posts: 1
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Famous Hollywood actor gets paid a fortune for a walk on part and the delivery of a couple of lines.
"That seemed like a lot of money for a few minutes work ?"
"Yeah - but it was a lifetimes experience that got me there"
With the internet everyone is now an expert. Granted enthusiasts are clued up about what they drive, but i just bet the repair shop has seen it all before.
Besides - time IS money. I understand "Sprat to catch a Mackerel" - but in these tight economic times the world seems to be full of free riders, and I could spend all day working for nothing.
Build up a relationship with your garage, do business with people you like, and then TRUST them, life is better like that !
Here endeth the lesson...... If you can't fix it with a hammer it must be an electrical problem.
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| 17th Jan 2011 9:35 am |
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ron3005
Member Since: 15 Mar 2010
Location: Feltham
Posts: 314
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I understand time is money I've no problem with all you guys that say 1 hours charge for youre mechanic to plug it in .I will gladly pay that but dont charge me the hour and then a charge for the equipment if you do that I can see youre place going bye bye I'm not there to pay for youre tools for the trade I will pay for youre time I dont think the garage I posted about thought about this so he lost my money in the future.
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| 17th Jan 2011 4:17 pm |
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packingstrips
Member Since: 24 Mar 2010
Location: uk
Posts: 435
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New to this Forum...so Hi everyone.
Ive been in the motortrade nearing 25 yrs the last 15 years as been spent in a main dealer...please be nice to me!
Just wanted to comment on this thread as it poses some very good questions from both sides.
I wanted to start off by saying that there are very few professions out there where you dont pay for a consultation or diagnosis...little off topic i know but i recently i was charged £30 just to take our dog in to be checked over...antibiotics and creams were on top of that charge and i walked away with a bill nearing £100, i was in there about 15 minutes!
In most cases we charge for diagnosis, our charge is clear and up front, we explain our costs and what you are exactly paying for, we also explain that if the fault cant be diagnosed within the first hr then we will recontact to gain further authority. The charge is for the labour spent doing the job and doesnt specifically reflect a charge for using the tool. I have to agree with Pete and Chris on this one, the tool is only as good as the tech who is using it...it doesnt jump up and down with a big finger pointing out the faulty component..it is the first step within that diagnstic path and without it ( unless you are extremely lucky ) is crucial to effectively finding the issue. Im sure most of you will realise the complexity of the vehicles you are driving, most of our techs are massively experienced with electrical faults...some infact relish the challenge but without the fault reader then there would be an awful amount of guess work. I dont and never have understood why anyone would take a faulty car to a garage and not expect to pay for time which had been spent on their vehicle , especially when there has been a resolution. If for instance the fault is found within the first 15-20 minutes then you are charge proportionally...and in some cases arent charged at all.
Another sensario is that sometimes when doing the diagnosis you can inadvertently fix the vehicle , perhaps due to a bad connection somewhere when doing a continutiy check, if this is the case we probably would not charge as we always like to find answers to the problems...to charge someone in this instance is wrong.
To be fair the diagnostic tool is used initially to gain the fault code..it may be used to read any datalogger or realtime readings, but in the end i can almost gaurantee that most techs end up using their old mate Mr Multimeter to find the actual fault.
Have a good evening.
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| 17th Jan 2011 10:21 pm |
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alex_pescaru
Member Since: 19 Dec 2010
Location: RO
Posts: 270
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Real case.
For various reasons, the FFBH has three consecutive "no start/burn" errors and, as we know, it locks-out.
The customer doesn't know that and goes to the dealer and says: "The car doesn't warm up like before. I believe that the auxiliary heater doesn't work as it used to...".
Car in warranty.
We know that after erasing the error code(s) the FFBH will start working again.
Question:
As long as the car is in warranty and a piece of equipment stopped working and the only way to make it work again is to use the diagnostic equipment, do you charge the customer or not?
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| 17th Jan 2011 11:08 pm |
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chrisbowler
Member Since: 30 Jan 2009
Location: UK WALES
Posts: 176
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You are going to have to wait for a dealer to answer the question of warrenty work
Personnally those kind of faults get sorted out when I carry out a normal service - we read all faults and clear them all down so that we have a date from which to know there were no faults present - that way we can track how long a fault has been present.
The charge for that is covered by the service charge which is totally based on time taken and parts used.
Chris Bowler Chris Bowler
D3 2005 EXPEDITION
D2 Challenge Vehicle
300 TDi Spare car
107" TD5 Comp Safari Motor
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| 17th Jan 2011 11:55 pm |
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hensoni
Member Since: 01 Oct 2007
Location: Sleepy Somerset
Posts: 576
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Quote:My advice is, find someone you trust, & accept that he is in business to make a living, & not strive to cut all prices to a minimum & he will then trust you & be working with you.
As recent convert to Steve's knowledge and expertise, I can only concur. Unfortunately, it's the "trust" element that's difficult when you only visit a business once a year. Some businesses realise this and treat you like God whenever you turn up, most simply treat you like a random punter regardless of how often you turn up.
Lastly, Steve, have you got that fancy wheel alignment kit set up yet? Club missing my D3
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| 18th Jan 2011 12:00 pm |
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