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Discoed
Member Since: 16 Jun 2010
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 1020
  
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Just a thought on diagnostics on modern vehicles and of course D3. Why do we get charged £40 plus a shot by independents and main dealers to get plugged in and diagnosed? I am sure someone will tell me that the kit is expensive and they need to recoup their investment. That still doesn't provide an adequate explanation. Surely it is just one more tool at the modern garage. Why not charge us for the use of a hydraulic lift? This is expensive kit too but we don't get charged per use? Why not charge us for the use of a spanner too. It's about time these tools were seen as just another essential tool that is used to do the job we pay for and stop making these unreasonable charges. We pay for labour (and experience and skill) by the hour and the tools used should be included in that fee.
Moan over. Am I being unreasonable?
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 14th Jan 2011 10:51 pm |
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SteveNorman
Member Since: 14 Oct 2005
Location: Somerset
Posts: 1144
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When you are charged to be 'plugged in' are you then charged on top for the labour time & experience? I.e charged a diagnostic fee & charged the labour for the time it takes to connect & read the codes, live data etc?
Regards
Steve
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| 14th Jan 2011 11:00 pm |
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Discoed
Member Since: 16 Jun 2010
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 1020
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No. It's just a fee for the diagnostic interrogation. Usually takes 10-15 mins in my experience followed by a £40 quid charge.
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| 14th Jan 2011 11:03 pm |
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sopjas
Member Since: 31 Dec 2008
Location: Its never Dull in Hull
Posts: 280
 
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its worth buying your own , faultmates are good but only lock onto one vehicle, I purchased the hawkeye does everything i need and reads all D3's
I was once charged £75 just to have a code read. RIP OFF yes 'Just because you're breathing doesn't mean you're alive'
Buckingham blue, Webast timer/remote, AT2s, Black & Silver ovals ,
Privacy Glass , Drilled and Groved Discs , Xenons, Rear LED's , Light Guards,Hawkeye diagnostic unit.
TL1000R--XR600R--
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| 14th Jan 2011 11:07 pm |
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bellautos
Member Since: 02 Feb 2006
Location: NorthYorkshire
Posts: 2532
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For the 40 quid they will be charging you for the time taken by their diagnostic tool expert to look at your car not for the tool hire. If you get your car repaired at the garage at the same time most dont charge for the diagnose and only charge for the repair.
Also most diagnostic tools are actually considered as a consumable item, This is because of in most cases they require yearly subscription updates to stay working and up to date. just like LR TOPIX does.
How much do you think you should be charged ? ,just curious
Pete
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| 15th Jan 2011 12:11 am |
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SteveNorman
Member Since: 14 Oct 2005
Location: Somerset
Posts: 1144
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Yes, what would you think would be a fair charge?
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| 15th Jan 2011 7:07 am |
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Gareth
Site Moderator
Member Since: 07 Dec 2004
Location: Bramhall
Posts: 26709
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If I were a main dealer, or an independant, I would view each case on its merits.
In a case of e regular customer, who had bought the car from me, and brought it in for regular service with me, I would probably not charge, knowing that I would probably get the business to fix it.
However, If someone turned up who I had not sold the car to, or ever seen them before in the service dept then I would charge a relevant fee. This would be a proportional fee based on time taken plus a charge for use of the equipment. If I diagnosed a fault, and got the repair business, then I would deduct the fee. Simples 
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| 15th Jan 2011 8:29 am |
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Discoed
Member Since: 16 Jun 2010
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 1020
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I think that as cars get ever more complex it becomes more and more routine that diagnostic kit is required to diagnose the problem. At one time this diagnosis would be done through the experience of the mechanic. I am not sure that it will continue to be sustainable for the industry to charge a specific fee for the use of a specific tool. There is still an element of 'novelty charge' for this work it seems to me.
I will of course continue to pay for diagnostics when I need it and I do appreciate the experience and knowledge, training etc. but I am still amused by the principal that owners are charged for the use of one 'tool' but not for the use of another.
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| 15th Jan 2011 11:49 am |
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pollafero
Member Since: 06 Nov 2009
Location: Ghent
Posts: 90
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I'm glad to report that my garage (an independent near Bruges) where I bought my D3 last year, did it for free. 
I had the car checked for error codes in relation to the Diesel Particulate Filter and took the occasion to have the Daylight Running Lamps and Head Light Washers enabled. Yet it took him 0,75 working hours. To my surprise and joy he sent me an invoice for 0,00 euro! 
I have been driving Disco's for 10 years+ now. My previous two (D2) were purchased at and maintained by an official LR dealer and there I have always been charged 40 euro or more for the use of the 'Electronic Testbook'. When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead, remember what the dormouse said: feed your head. (Jefferson Airplane)
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| 15th Jan 2011 1:59 pm |
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bellautos
Member Since: 02 Feb 2006
Location: NorthYorkshire
Posts: 2532
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brucezcutts wrote:
Moan over. Am I being unreasonable?
Yes you are.
Ok here is a sinario which i think is fully valid, give or take a little on times.
1:Customer calls garage to book car in = 5 mins on phone to secretary.
2:Customer arrives ar garage and introduces him/her self and hands over the keys = 5 mins of secretary time.
3:Secretary now loggs the car onto the work server so the workshop can pick up the job sheet to work on the car = 5 mins.
4:Workshop goes and get the keys for the car from the secretary to bring the car in the workshop = 5 mins.
5:Workshop loggs the car on to the diagnostic tool for investigastion = minimium 15-20 mins.
6:Workshop loggs of the car and puts tools away = 5 mins.
7:Workshop fills in the job sheet with the faults found and hands to secretary with keys = 5 mins.
8:Secretary possibily works out a repair cost and calls you to tell you the found news = 10 mins.
9:You turn up for your car get key and decide for the repair to be done or just pay the diagnostic bill 5-10 mins.
As said above most do not charge if the repair if its done at the garage who made the diagnosis.
So now you have actually had at least 60 mins of time for your 40 quid which i dont think its bad when you see the real cost of labour to do your diagnostic investigation.
This is all time taken just to read your fault codes and its labour must to be paid to each member of staff for the things they were involved in above not a charge for the tool its self.
The average labour cost at the dealers is £90-£100 per hr, a £40 bill if you think about it is 1/2 of that. So infact the dealer has done them selfs selling the diagnostic at only £40 when that hrs labour you have just had could have generated £90-£100. I think £40 is very resonable to be honest.
Thats without the free coffee you got on your way in and out of the dealers.
Changing over to the use of the ramp, you are paying for it in the labour paid for the service or repair you are having done at that time.
I hope this provides an adequate explanation 
Pete
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| 15th Jan 2011 2:06 pm |
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chrisbowler
Member Since: 30 Jan 2009
Location: UK WALES
Posts: 176
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Just to add to Pete Bell's post - as an independant Land Rover Specialist, the tool I bought to enable me to provide a diagnostic service cost £8500 plus £800 per year maintenance contract that gives me daily, weekly or monthly updates in line with the changes that Land Rover make.
I use that "TOOL" for everything from service light reset, " turn the lights off on the dash", monitor real time data of a variety of components on the vehicle, re programme ECUs including to supplying updated engine software, clear general faults and sell performance upgrades.
Without it we go back to traditional analogue diagnostics which in some cases involves swapping out mechanical components, hours or checking this and checking that untuil either by luck we find the problem or by accident we wiggle the wires and make the component work!!! In the case of a D2 or D3 there are certain functions that cannot be carried out without a diagnostic tool - clearing faults, monitoring EGR valve positions to name but a few.
I have never had my charges questioned (and the figure of £40 is about right) because without the service that I provide, my customers cannot make a judgement on how they will get their car fixed - they can however , choose to go to the local dealer if they want - They charge more - a lot more.
The most important point to remember however is that when you use a diagnostic system, you are like a detective and when you decide what the solution is, you have to prove to yourself and the customer that you are right - experience on using the tool and how to solve the customers problem, however large or small is what the customer is paying for - if you are wrong then the customer can refuse to pay as they have not had the problem resolved - therefore you are only as good as the solution you provide!!!
I hope this post gives a view of an independant without disobeying the commercial rules of the site.
Chris Bowler Chris Bowler
D3 2005 EXPEDITION
D2 Challenge Vehicle
300 TDi Spare car
107" TD5 Comp Safari Motor
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| 15th Jan 2011 8:54 pm |
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character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
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hi chris, just saw yer reply, excuse me if I'm getting this wrong but I am speaking from a customers point of view - so in essence the use of the kit is as a safeguard to your business and bottom line so that you don't get it wrong, still not sure why we the customer should pay for what is used as a "tool of the job" 
The fact that you pay for the equipment to be able to specialise in newer LR's is a commercial decision on your part rewarded by a greater revenue stream from we the customers who would enter your premises and no doubt costed when deciding on your business plan/investment.
I strongly believe if a dealer really does want to kick off on the wrong foot with a new customer, then go ahead and charge your "X" amount of pounds! Might want to think just how many customers you COULD create by not charging for a peice of equipment that you use to broaden your customer base 
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| 15th Jan 2011 9:07 pm |
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bellautos
Member Since: 02 Feb 2006
Location: NorthYorkshire
Posts: 2532
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Without getting into a forum diagnostic full on debate lol, Its actually the other way round.
The tool can give the wrong direction of fault, its the user of the tool that has to decide from experience and knowlage of the car if the faults given by the tool are valid or not. and from that decision the origin of the fault will be given in the answer to the customer.
Sinario 2, which may show how the "Tool" is only good as its user and can actually mislead its user.
This fault code alone shows that you are paying for the users expertise and knowlage not the tools read fault code.
Customer brings a car in with lack or power and smoke.
we connect the said tool to read the fault codes.
The fault code shown is P023D Manifold absolute pressure - turbocharger/supercharger boost sensor A correlationSo what is the problem on the car ? how do we fix this fault and repair the car so the customer is happy ? remembering if we get it wrong and fit the wrong parts we can not charge for the car.
Or forgetting the above and i do a free fault code read because you want to fix the car your self and print you out P023D Manifold absolute pressure - turbocharger/supercharger boost sensor A correlation what will you do to fix the car ?
Pete
Last edited by bellautos on 15th Jan 2011 9:27 pm. Edited 1 time in total
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| 15th Jan 2011 9:23 pm |
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character
Member Since: 01 Jan 2008
Location: wiltshire
Posts: 5781
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Pete, short one for yer, should we expect a reduction for :
Tech walks across garage floor to assist other tech (5 mins)
Tech goes to get coffee from machine (3 mins)
Tech does something non relevant to the repair of customers vehicle but still charged for within that "hourly" rate
Tech is tasked to replace vehicle part which is automatically costed at 1.5hours but does it in 1.0 hours
Tech does complete service in 2.0 hours but garage still charges for 3.0 hours
Yer really cant have yer cake and eat it yer know these days, customer retention is king, going that bit extra rather than just simply looking at the "well they charge for it, we'll charge for it" approach will be many a business down fall in the longer term" 
These replies talk about how usefull a bit of kit it might be FOR YOU TO DO THE JOB YER ENTRUSTED TO DO, just accept it , do'nt baffle us with the technicalities of how it does this and that, we customers are not interested as to us its your job to find out why my car is not working, its why I came to you in the first place, if you have to use the "kit" then that's fine, if yer have to use a spanner, that's fine, if yer have to use a screwdriver, that's fine, but why oh why do you garages continue to ask us to pay for you using a piece of equipment that is an essential workshop tool to aid the fixing of a modern vehicle
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| 15th Jan 2011 9:27 pm |
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bellautos
Member Since: 02 Feb 2006
Location: NorthYorkshire
Posts: 2532
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I here what you are saying character but this is not understood by many. as for fitting times etc this is off topic.
If a customer goes into most garages and the work or repair is done at that garage their is not normally a diagnostic charge as the garage is doing the repair work its self.
However if a customer wants to repair his own car why should a diagnostic session be free when it as above usually used 1hrs labour from the garage ?
Pete
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| 15th Jan 2011 9:35 pm |
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