DISCO4.COM - View topic - Fault code reader experiences?

Roel

Member Since: 16 Aug 2008
Location: home
Posts: 1215

2005 Discovery 3 4.4 V8 HSE Auto Tangiers Orange

Fault code reader experiences?

I travel through europe for work a lot and with my previous car the Camel I knew that I could get it running again unless there is something real serious. With the electronic D3 I am not so sure. I have a feeling It could just be a windows problem and your standing still.
I drove already almost 20000 km and the only problem I have is the

upper tailgate that sometimes opens and sometimes not.

I would like to have a Fault code reader but as I find them expensive I would like to buy the right one the first time I buy one so how are your experiences?

Who uses which fault code reader?

In what depth do they go in the D3 software?

And how often did you really need it?

I have a feeling that only a few members have them but a lot would like to have one. Roel

1997 Camel Trophy Disco ex-P101JWK (traded it for a Britains 42101)
1984 90 TD5
2005 G4 Disco 3 BN55WPT

Also member of club MTR
and Club Faultmate

Interested in my 4x4 history see my website: www.mudmachine.webklik.nl
Sorry it's in Dutch and with google translator it gets funny.

14th Feb 2009 4:10 pm

BBS SPY
Site Sponsor

Member Since: 15 Jun 2007
Location: Sunny Cyprus
Posts: 3054

2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 Base 7 Seat Auto Bonatti Grey

Some may know this information and some may not, but as this information is directly relevant to anyone wishing to more accurately assess or compare the capabilities of any diagnostic equipment, i thought i might post it.

Diagnostic access to all the various Vehicle ECU's on a D3 and indeed any LR from 2005 is done via the OBDII connector to one of two communication buses.
The High speed CAN bus and the Medium or Low speed CAN bus.
The High speed bus is the primary BUS and is used for all the major operational systems such as Engine Management, ABS, AutoBox, Airbag Transfer box etc, The low or medium speed Bus is used for less essential items such as Hevac, park distance, body control

There is a fiber optic MOST bus, but this is not connected to directly to the diagnostic connector for diagnostic access but instead uses the Audio head unit as a gateway between the MOST and Medium / Low speed CAN bus.

Any operational information that needs to be crossed between the two CAN buses uses the Instrument cluster as a gateway, but for diagnostic communication this is done directly over the relevant CAN bus.

The high speed CAN bus connects to pins on the diagnostic connector and uses a protocol for communication that directly follows a published OBDII standard. The engine management and Auto box also are programmed to respond to the legislated OBDII address of &H33 and give OBDII legislated data, including fault codes in accordance with the standard too. So any OBDII scan tool that supports the CAN protocol should be able to access these two systems, and although these systems may report fault codes that are manufacturer specific, it is not difficult to find look up lists specific to the vehicle manufacturer system to help interpret them.

Going beyond accessing these two vehicle ECU's / systems on the High speed CAN bus to talk to the others such as ABS or Park Brake is physically not difficult because the hardware is already connecting on that BUS, but as even the addresses for each of the other ECU's is proprietary to the Vehicle manufacturer (and typically kept secret) the software would have to be specifically written for a particular vehicle system.

Sadly a lot of scan tool makers will list a vehicle such as the D3 from being covered, but do not make it clear that it will only access the OBDII compliant ECU's / Vehicle systems.

Now, this is where it gets a bit tricky, and i will try my very best to explain it.
The published OBDII standard defines 2 pins on the OBDII connector for diagnostic communication by CAN, but then describes two protocols that can be used over these two pins. The first is called High speed CAN (HS CAN) and uses a data rate of 500 KBPS, the second is called Medium Speed CAN (MS CAN) and uses a data rate of 250 KBPS. A car manufacturer can use either and an OBDII Scan Tool may indeed support both.

However in that second case, it is not referring to the Low or Medium speed bus of a D3 which has no OBDII complient ECU's on it anyway, but in any vehicle where it has a primary bus that communicates using the 250 KBPS standard referred to as the Medium speed CAN bus (MSCAN)

In fact the secondary Low or medium speed bus of the D3 connects to a totally different and unlegislated pair of pins and uses an unlegislated bus speed of 125 KBPS which unhelpfully Land Rover describe in their technical documentation as a Medium speed CAN BUS (MS CAN).
This bus is therefore totally proprietory to D3 etc and regular OBDII hardware does not even connect to it and even if it did, or was modified at the lead, it would be using 250 KBPS which is the wrong speed.

Hopefully one can see how easy it would be to read the blurb on a 200 or 300 $ OBDII scan tool and perhaps guided by an over enthusiastic sales guy, assume you are looking at something that covers the D3 and its High and medium speed CAN busses, but in actual fact it is something that will only reads the engine management and auto box.

Another thing i often see, is where a diagnostic system vendor Lists its coverage as "Land Rover" Implying all models and indeed it will be able to access the OBDII systems on all models, then they may have added specific software coverage of other vehicle ECU's / systems such as Fuel Burning heater, and indeed on L322's the Fuel burning heater is connected on the OBDII legislated pins so as stated before that is therefore not so difficult. But their equipment wont actually specifically connect to and cover the Fuel burning heater on a D3.

So if inquiring, be sure to get a list of vehicle systems that are covered on your specific model, not those that are grouped by make.

Ideally, a list of exactly what features, functions and diagnostic capabilities are provided for each and every ECU that is listed for your model would be the ultimate.

hope this helps and it was not too boring

warmest regards to all

Colin

14th Feb 2009 5:50 pm

London Lad

Member Since: 27 May 2008
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 505

2008 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Stornoway Grey

Err, yes, what he said

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You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience !

14th Feb 2009 6:09 pm

Roel

Member Since: 16 Aug 2008
Location: home
Posts: 1215

I hope to find out if there are more fault readers that do the complete job. I had contact with a German company. First email very positive and not expensive but then I asked a little more details and I didn't get an answer back jet.

Roel

1997 Camel Trophy Disco ex-P101JWK (traded it for a Britains 42101)
1984 90 TD5
2005 G4 Disco 3 BN55WPT

Also member of club MTR
and Club Faultmate

Interested in my 4x4 history see my website: www.mudmachine.webklik.nl
Sorry it's in Dutch and with google translator it gets funny.

15th Feb 2009 3:15 am

SteveNorman

Member Since: 14 Oct 2005
Location: Somerset
Posts: 1144

Well written & comprehensive reply Colin.

Regards
Steve

15th Feb 2009 12:10 pm

BBS SPY
Site Sponsor

Member Since: 15 Jun 2007
Location: Sunny Cyprus
Posts: 3054

I tend to keep an eye on most everything in the Market.
And even i have ended up buying stuff to check it out based on mis leading information.

I bought one well known and previously mentioned bit of kit from the states, listed ford models including late CAN ones, and all their ECU's especially and a long list of dedicated values / features i know exist, so i got one, plugged it into a brand new Focus.

The settings page is that of an OBDII scanner, ie field for 02 sensor values, Engine RPM, water temp, all the regular any old scan tool stuff, Then i clicked the drop down box to select a different ECU, picked the drivers door module, Same settings screen as before, just the VIN filled in. MAybe a mistake, nope seems they only had the one OBDII settings screen generically used for all the listed ECU's. So then i selected an ECU that i knew was not actually fitted on this Focus i had plugged in, same screen and same VIN as all the rest.

Pah, another one for the pile.
I hope you do find something at least Roel, i have heard that there is some stuff that can talk to some of the car.

Thank you Steve, i come across all sorts of info in my work developing diagnostic equipment for Land Rovers and it does annoy me when something is almost engineered to be confusing.
Anyway, i am happy to share my knowledge with any member, just for the want of asking.

regards

Colin

20th Feb 2009 11:51 am

Roel

Member Since: 16 Aug 2008
Location: home
Posts: 1215

Thanks Colin,

But looks like there are not much experiences around or the members who bought something disappointing don't want to be remembered.

But it looks like nobody bought anything they are happy with either.

Roel

1997 Camel Trophy Disco ex-P101JWK (traded it for a Britains 42101)
1984 90 TD5
2005 G4 Disco 3 BN55WPT

Also member of club MTR
and Club Faultmate

Interested in my 4x4 history see my website: www.mudmachine.webklik.nl
Sorry it's in Dutch and with google translator it gets funny.

20th Feb 2009 12:23 pm

BBS SPY
Site Sponsor

Member Since: 15 Jun 2007
Location: Sunny Cyprus
Posts: 3054

Hmmn, I am quite sure we do have a few Disco 3 owners with our stuff, not sure if they are members here or they may not have actually seen your post / question.

20th Feb 2009 12:54 pm

TallPaul

Member Since: 03 Jan 2008
Location: Near Reading
Posts: 1214

I am borrowing one from a friend soon (ODB reader), if it works in any usable way on D3 I will report back with model details (not sure what it is).

20th Feb 2009 4:45 pm

Genis

Member Since: 05 Jul 2006
Location: Windhoek
Posts: 31

2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 S Auto Tangiers Orange

What exactly can one do with a fault reader? Would it help if I get stranded in the bush or desert with eg suspension fault, or limp mode something like that?

7th Mar 2009 8:21 am

London Lad

Member Since: 27 May 2008
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 505

@ Roel,

I have a cheap OBD PC based code reader from ebay. It works fine with my D3 08.5 MY and all other OBD cars I have tried it on.

It reads and resets stored and pending fault codes on the D3 but only engine and transmission ones.

It also gives real-time viewing of sensors in text or graphic format and will log them for later analysis.

This is the item:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vie...0322972036

He hasn't got any listed at the moment. NOTE that you need the engine check PRO software not the ordinary engine check software kits he has listed at the moment.

He sometimes lists the reader and software as a kit and sometimes separately.

This vendor has nothing to do with me. YMMV .
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You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience !

7th Mar 2009 11:19 am

Dont_tell_him_Pike

Member Since: 08 Mar 2009
Location: Hove
Posts: 36

Hi London Lad,

This is a great 2nd post for me on this site although i have thousands of posts on other sites.

I know the obd reader you have. It can indeed pull the engine & gearbox codes to the same sort of level as a good educated guess.

It's a great little tool for the generic market, but it can display non true codes & if acted upon, can cost you more money than a trip to the dealers.

In Land rover terms, it's not really recommended unless you just use it to give you some idea.

Unfortunately, in terms of diagnostics for land rovers there's very little choice other than the big boy stuff.

I have it all, a good Â£40k worth from T4, autologic, rovacom, IDS, decscan etc etc. & i'm a prolific user on mobile & workshop usage.

Now if i said dont buy a disco3 for less than 10k because you'll be buying rubbish, you'd probably agree.
Well the same applies for the diagnostics. Dont buy anything for less than Â£300 because you'll be buying rubbish.

There was a wonderful post from BBS Spy above. i have that companies very latest stuff that compliments my arsenal of diagnostics, but looking at his website he can supply a system on a vin number for your vehicle that covers everything in precise detail. Now looking at the cost of his kit to the obd reader you got off ebay you might get the idea the reader you have is a little overpriced for what it can achieve.

I think i'd rather pay a little more for something that can do 100 times more, if you know what i'm saying.

Hope this helps.

8th Mar 2009 1:19 pm

London Lad

Member Since: 27 May 2008
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 505

Hi,

I was only posting to answer the original questions Roel asked. If you read his questions and my post you will see that.

The cheap reader I have reads and resets the engine and transition codes of the D3 and all other OBD cars I have tried it on. It doesn't guess them, it reads what's stored! This stuff isn't magic, it's just electronics

I am not saying it's any better or worse than anything any one else is offering, just answering the OP's questions with simple facts.

In fact you will note that I deliberately made no comment on any one else's products as I know nothing about them.

Like you, I too have many thousands of pounds worth of tools and test gear for the the field that I am involved in every day, electronics. I use this gear most everyday.

I only read car OBD codes a few times a year and don't want to invest Â£40k to do that.

However I am a tool / test gear junkie and just may be interested in the reader that you say can do a 100 times more than my one for just a little more than the Â£110 that I paid. Please post a link. .
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You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience !

8th Mar 2009 7:43 pm

Dont_tell_him_Pike

Member Since: 08 Mar 2009
Location: Hove
Posts: 36

You're correct,

It is a good tool for the generic level as i stated earlier.

But not much cop for a land rover.

Using the cheap reader, you will only ever pull the codes that the manufacturers allow you by law.

I never mentioned that the reader guesses the codes, i replied with they're as good as an educated guess by someone with a good engineering background.

If you own a disco 3 we all know the costs involed each time it's in the workshop for stupid things like fault code clearing.

So, if the object is to take some of these jobs in hand yourself, & save the money, it's great, but you do need something a little better than a cheap generic reader, especially as land rovers are a specialist vehicle, you need a specialist diagnostic tool.

Looking on blackbox website a while back i think theres a code reader & reset tool for, i think, about Â£300. Not sure if you need to buy the little system with that, i'll take a look later.

This one will read all the faults on your disco & clear them as well. You dont need any other help with that, you have full control of the diagnostics.

Or you can spend Â£120 & still, half the time, be none the wiser.

I'm not taking into account if it's a financial issue as I'm expressing a logical issue.

I own a workshop, I have the latest of the latest gear, yet my stuff isn't any better than that 300 stuff, & i charge more than that for a brake pad replacement.

Although, sometimes we have to take any job that comes in on any vehicle, so we do use the cheap readers if we can as you haven't got to worry about them as much.

8th Mar 2009 10:30 pm

London Lad

Member Since: 27 May 2008
Location: Suffolk
Posts: 505

Hi,

I am sorry but I really can't understand what you are on about!

It reads and resets the engine and transmission codes, not only on the D3 but on all other OBD vehicles.

I appreciate that there are loads of other modules on the D3 and most other cars, that it doesn't read but that is why I said in my original post "It reads and resets stored and pending fault codes on the D3 but only engine and transmission ones."

Are you saying the Black Box reader will read all the D3 modules for Â£300 ? That's not how I read it but I will stand corrected if BBS SPY say different.

Anyway bottom line is the Â£110 thing I have will read and reset the engine and transmission codes on a D3 (or any other OBD car) just the same as any other reader that reads OBD CAN codes.

If you want to read all the other modules then as far as I know you need IDS or Autologic at Â£4k+

And as far as all this educated guess stuff goes......the code reader (whatever reader it is and whatever it costs) just reads a code stored in a module, how that code is interpreted is obviously down to the mechanic or tech. .
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You should never argue with idiots because they will just drag you down to their level....then beat you with experience !

8th Mar 2009 11:29 pm