Member Since: 16 Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 6019
I think my post has not been understood, I did say international sites and didn't mean France in general. If your offering a service aimed at international visitors, it is without doubt in Europe expected that you can speak English as it is the second language regardless of what you say.
The point I was making is that companies in every other country in Europe who deal with international clients, speak english.
If I moved to France, I would expect to learn French and the same applies here. I would also be happy to learn another language if english hadn't become the international language. In fact I speak Dutch and used it while I worked in Holland.
All I am saying is that for some reason they are not keen to speak English whether it be to english, danish or dutch people. I am also not saying it because I am english I am stating it because I am surprised.
Gurvan, German may be the first language of Europe, but it's not the second language, english is. If German was the second language we would all have to learn it and I have no problem with that. But when your dealing with second languages there can only be one and rightly or wrongly it seems to be english. Your comment "when in Rome do as the Romans do..." , would mean having to learn over 27 languages just to deal with the EU countries.
Your other comment "The notion that everyone wherever in the world should speak YOUR language sounds extremely rude and un-respectful to me and quite a lot of people in the world beside me... " is utter rubbish. I am asking those international companies to speak the language, which is regarded as the international language not just because it english. I would say the same if it were German and they refused to speak it. Your reaction is typical of exactly the point I made, you are equally as arrogant to say everybody should learn French. I am half Dutch so don't claim it's because I am English, the Dutch feel the same way.
I have no problem with languages and it would be totally wrong for Europe internally to start speaking english, but for international companies it is not practical to speak 20+ languages to communicate.
Last edited by countrywide on 4th May 2009 11:03 pm. Edited 1 time in total
4th May 2009 9:25 pm
SN
Member Since: 03 Jan 2006
Location: Romiley
Posts: 13710
Anyone remember the American corporation Digital (or DEC). Swallowed by Compaq in 99 who were then swallowed by HP. When I was working in Munich in 1998 I was discussing with a German guy whether a computer application we were putting in needed to support German (i.e. put instructions and info on the screen in German).
His response was.... "no need, the screens are already in German... Digital German" with a resigned look on his face Steve N | 21MY Defender | 08MY Discovery 3 (history) | 06MY Discovery 3 (ancient history)
4th May 2009 9:54 pm
countrywide
Member Since: 16 Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 6019
Don't get me wrong, I like France by the way and will be there in a few weeks time .
If only I had not taken German instead as a language to learn
4th May 2009 11:15 pm
wvlenthe
Member Since: 07 Jan 2009
Location: Arnhem
Posts: 1967
Quote:
the Dutch feel the same way.
My idea of the French vs other parts of Europe is that Brits, Germans but also people of the new EU countries like Hungarians are pleasantly surprised when you speak their language. The French take it for granted.
I'm not after bashing the French. France is a lovely country and I've dealt with French people on personal as well as business level. I have no negative experience to speak of.
regards,
WiljoD3 V8 HSE Auto in Zermatt silver - driveway version gone but not forgotten, only the living room cupboard version remains
5th May 2009 6:21 am
chris ace
Member Since: 10 May 2007
Location: ESSEX
Posts: 63
just thought id add my views and i have to agree with gurvan. We go to france 3 or 4 times a year and have a place in the french alps. We do try hard to speak some french and are going to start having lessons. Im afraid i do feel that when we visit other countries it really is a respect thing to try and understand there language. In our society in Britain today, i think it is a shame when people come here they do not do the same. Anyway, just my thoughts without wanting to upset anyone.
5th May 2009 6:57 am
Gurvan
Member Since: 02 Jan 2005
Location: Germany... Not far from both the US and Hard German rock...
Posts: 1089
countrywide wrote:
I think my post has not been understood, I did say international sites and didn't mean France in general. If your offering a service aimed at international visitors, it is without doubt in Europe expected that you can speak English as it is the second language regardless of what you say.
Partly true... There are places in Paris where being able to speak Chinese or Japanese or Russian is considered much more important than knowing English.
countrywide wrote:
The point I was making is that companies in every other country in Europe who deal with international clients, speak english.
Untrue... Look at McDonald or others... They are trying to adapt to each and every country, using their language and adapting their menues... They may use English internally of course, but when reaching out to the people, they would try to use the local language.
countrywide wrote:
All I am saying is that for some reason they are not keen to speak English whether it be to english, danish or dutch people. I am also not saying it because I am english I am stating it because I am surprised.
Why should they ? If they want your business, they will adapt if it is a case of the reverse, you should adapt...
countrywide wrote:
Gurvan, German may be the first language of Europe, but it's not the second language, english is. If German was the second language we would all have to learn it and I have no problem with that. But when your dealing with second languages there can only be one and rightly or wrongly it seems to be english. Your comment "when in Rome do as the Romans do..." , would mean having to learn over 27 languages just to deal with the EU countries.
And ? What would be wrong with that ? That is exactly what Europe is trying to do and it is in their charter... If we had to choose a unique language for Europe, why shouldn't it be, say, Esperanto or something else ? Why English ? English became the first language internationally used because of the weight of the USA and this is why a lot of people worldwide are going to use trucks instead of lorries.
Beside that, is it really English or Globish ? ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Globish )
countrywide wrote:
Your other comment "The notion that everyone wherever in the world should speak YOUR language sounds extremely rude and un-respectful to me and quite a lot of people in the world beside me... " is utter rubbish. I am asking those international companies to speak the language, which is regarded as the international language not just because it english. I would say the same if it were German and they refused to speak it. Your reaction is typical of exactly the point I made, you are equally as arrogant to say everybody should learn French. I am half Dutch so don't claim it's because I am English, the Dutch feel the same way.
Quote me please where I said that everybody HAD to learn French ? I am certainly not advocating that but saying that one should adapt to the circumstances and not try to force something on others. If a company is courting French customers, then it should adapt to them and not the other way around. It is what most of the big customer oriented companies, like the McDonald example I gave you, are doing...
Your rant is basically egoistical when you say that you are "asking those international companies to speak the language, which is regarded as the international language not just because it english." Those companies will work in the language they want and that is fully their right !
countrywide wrote:
I have no problem with languages and it would be totally wrong for Europe internally to start speaking english, but for international companies it is not practical to speak 20+ languages to communicate.
So fire your French employees if they don't speak the English you want them to !
But enjoy it why it lasts... One century ago, French was THE diplomatical language, nowadays it is English, what will it be tomorrow ? Could be Chinese or something else...
wvlenthe wrote:
My idea of the French vs other parts of Europe is that Brits, Germans but also people of the new EU countries like Hungarians are pleasantly surprised when you speak their language. The French take it for granted.
True, quite true and to the point... France has, internally, a very image of itself. We, the French, still see ourselves as being one of the top country of the world and we automatically assume that this will not be challenged and that we are recognized as such. With that idea in mind, how can we not expect others to speak our language ?
Add to that the fact that English is still being seen as the Language used by Americans (And anti-americanism is very high in France) or the Language used by our "arch ennemies" : the Brits... (Just remember Fachoda, Joan Of Arc or Mers El Kebir...) Top that with a bad school system for foreign languages and what you get ? The attitude that you described...
It is not that we take seriously the idea that others should speak French... It is much more a question of relief at finding someone who does !
Add also to that a small thing : in French like in German and other languages, there is the "Tu, Du" as opposed to the "Vous, Sie"... That distinction is not easily made in English and thus, it gives sometimes a false feeling of proximity for a foreigner who might perceive the English "You" as being too close, too personal... Thus setting an ill feeling in a relation from the start...
Now, we could probably discuss the subject for hours and still not find find a solution but the final word, for me, is that you have to take on the world as it is and not as you want it to be... Georgia On My Mind...
5th May 2009 2:09 pm
countrywide
Member Since: 16 Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 6019
Gurvan you misunderstand me, the French company in question was trying to get UK business and was selling it's service to the UK with a international support line, but seemingly unable to speak a language which the majority of Europeans speak as a second language. It's the same if the company sells to Holland, more Dutch people speak English than French.
Of course MacDonalds in France should be in French, because it is aimed at the local market. It's like our German office speaks German and brochures etc are in German. When I am talking about international companies, I don't mean international companies in France, I mean French companies operating internationally.
You did say everybody should learn to speak French if they want to speak to French companies, that is what I was quoting. But if a company is courting international companies then you have to narrow the options down to a majority second language.
My point is that I happen to be lucky it is English, but if it was French I would learn it and not have an issue with it. I am surprised that's all that a international company makes it hard to speak to them.
Of course if I go into the local town in France then I don't expect them to speak English, but if I phone a French company who openly looks for business from Europe then I would kind of expect them to speak the second language. They couldn't speak Dutch either when I tried or German.
I would also re-state that I like France otherwise I wouldn't be spending time there
EDIT: You speak and write good English by the way, why did you choose to learn it.
5th May 2009 2:31 pm
Gurvan
Member Since: 02 Jan 2005
Location: Germany... Not far from both the US and Hard German rock...
Posts: 1089
Ok. If the problem is with a French Company trying to get into another market then, of course, you are right... They should at least speak correct English !
But the problem is again within France with a very bad school system for teaching foreign languages. I've lost count of the number of times I had to correct the documentation given to my daughters when they are in an English course ! I've lost count of the number of people whom I took up on their "English : fluent" on their resume and whom I tried to conduct an interview in English with...
What can I say ? We are arrogant (Ok, we'd rather say proud...) and very bad at foreign languages in general...
Thus, I would say : too bad for that company and try finding an alternative or try to get in touch with higher echelon of that company and let them know how badly they are doing in that peculiar area of their management...
As for my English, well thank you... English was my second foreign language after German which I took first. I got more interested in it when I realized, in the 80', that all the good books about role-playing, computing or wargaming were in English ! That did wonder for my English and allowed me to read and write as I do. As for speaking, though, due to lack of practice, I would say that I do have a very French accent ! The "th" sound which is so common in English is a very hard one for a Frenchman !Georgia On My Mind...
5th May 2009 4:04 pm
countrywide
Member Since: 16 Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 6019
Sorry if I was not clear, I was not trying to start a international incident
I'll be honest the English are lazy with languages because everybody else speaks it.
5th May 2009 7:27 pm
DG Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934
The French language is easy....you just need these instructions
5th May 2009 7:38 pm
Gurvan
Member Since: 02 Jan 2005
Location: Germany... Not far from both the US and Hard German rock...
Posts: 1089
Yep... That is a good one ! I'll save if for reuse one day !
Don't you have one about how to maintain a proper stiff upper-lip ? Georgia On My Mind...
I must confess my French is awful but I tried to speak it when I could during our recent holiday in France. I made a point of always greeting and saying thank you in French even if I couldn't converse in French what I wanted. We were always treated with respect and made welcome. I think the French like most other countries, resent it when we visit or move to their country and then try to turn parts of it into Britain. I don't like it when we have whole sections here in the UK that are like being in a foreign country, the exception is Chinatown which I think we accept. 8)
The majority of English going abroad want to take their own culture with them and expect the country they are in to adapt to it. If we had our way the whole world would be like Britain only with different climates……..doesn’t bear thinking about does it!!! ------------------------------
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Huge Permagrin
Member Since: 27 Mar 2007
Location: Hampshire
Posts: 1072
Mike40 wrote:
The majority of English going abroad want to take their own culture with them and expect the country they are in to adapt to it. If we had our way the whole world would be like Britain only with different climates……..doesn’t bear thinking about does it!!!
Sadly we have let 1000's, if not millions into the UK who expect exactly that... Off Roading is OK.... But I'd rather be Boating!
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Why English ? English became the first language internationally used because of the weight of the USA and this is why a lot of people worldwide are going to use trucks instead of lorries.
