Member Since: 16 Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 6019
French and the English language
Am I the only one who finds that the French don't speak English even at international sites. I know that we have this running joke about the French and English, but english is primarily the international language and every other country I have been to, english is spoken very well by nearly everybody below 50.
Do they not teach English in French schools and before anybody says we should learn French, for the large majority of Europe english is the second language. If all of Europe had the same idea, then we would all have to learn about 10 languages in order to communicate.
4th May 2009 10:03 am
robsmith
Member Since: 02 Sep 2007
Location: Staffordshire
Posts: 2392
My thoughts exactly. I have the joy of working for a French company who's langauge is English (I'll let you work that one out). Its great fun to be in a meeting with them and hear them jabber in French when asked a question, then have the answer back in English that is nothing like the "truth" that came out in the jabbering, then ask them in French what they meant by a phrase in the jabbering It really takes the rug from under their feet
Having in the past visited many of the smaller European countries it amazed me how often the opening question from a native recognising me as a visitor was "Do you speak English?". If I knew a bit of the local language I would attempt a suitable reply explaining that I was English, but knew a little of theirs (often only the phrase I'd just used, and how to order some food/drink), the look on the face of the questioner was more than enough thanks for me having tried.
I feel for the French, but not a lot. France is a great country, but would be far better without the French (Brittany is NOT part of France despite the attempts of Parisians to convince the world....).Rob Smith
Silver rools OK
4th May 2009 11:52 am
TazDaz
Member Since: 07 May 2007
Location: South East Essex
Posts: 2858
Then, in "collège" (elementary schools), children are taught French literature, maths, sciences like biology, physics and chemistry, English, Spanish or German (according to the pupil's choice), P.E., music, arts, history, geography and a bit of politics.
During the second year, the pupils become a little specialized in a particular field : economics and politics, languages, sciences, history and geography or literature. At the end of this year, the pupils who are called "L" (meaning student in literature and languages) stop learning all the sciences learned so far.
Eventually, during the last year, the pupils now know what they want to do with their lives and study in domain, readying themselves for college.
The main foreign languages spoken in France are English (36%), Spanish (13%) andGerman (8%)
Last edited by TazDaz on 4th May 2009 12:41 pm. Edited 1 time in total
4th May 2009 12:24 pm
SJR
Member Since: 09 Aug 2006
Location: East Manchester
Posts: 4030
I believe that if you go on to further education in France you can also take such courses as:
1. Blockading Ports
2. Urban Rioting
3. Setting Fire to Foreign Lorries
4. Fishing Illegally
5. How to ignore the EU rules that you insist everyone else sign up to.
And so on, if you can think of any more, please add to the list I believe that every human has a finite number of heart-beats. I don't intend to waste any of mine running around doing exercises.
Buzz Aldrin (1930 -
In our office we recieve faxed orders from our customers all over the world.
Everyone communicates to us in English (we are after all an English company).
Except the French customers.
The French really do have a bee in their bonnet about speaking English don't they?
I always reply to them in French though in the hope that it shows them that we can rise above such small-minded behaviour! 8)
4th May 2009 12:44 pm
Gurvan
Member Since: 02 Jan 2005
Location: Germany... Not far from both the US and Hard German rock...
Posts: 1089
If I can only agree about Britanny not being part of France (As I am a Britton by heart and genealogy...), I can not agree with the rest of your proposition about English being the "universal language"...
First of all, of which "English" are we talking about ? The "UK English" of Microsoft or the "Globish" ? Every English speaker who is not native has heard about the truck/lorry difference...
I am a non native English speaker who has had to work in a lot of multinational environments and I can tell you for sure that when a true native is using English, most of the time, if he/she doesn't pay attention, his talk is not going to be understood by a lot of the non-native audience because of accent, choice of uncommon (For the audience) vocabulary and so on... Even jokes which are common can fail because of a lack of a common set of references...
Thus, yes, the French are learning English, but try using English in some parts of Africa and I which you luck !
Secondly, there is a saying which goes like this, "when in Rome do as the Romans do..." I still cannot fathom some British expats having settled in SW France who after 10 years still do not understand French enough to buy a baguette from the local bakery ! Learning another language is also good for you as it allows you to widen your view of the world and it is good believe me...
Thirdly, Europe is never going to be a new "United States of Europe" where everyone will have to learn English... The first language of Europe is still German last time I looked... Followed by French... Maybe you should start learning something new...
Fourthly, speaking a foreigner language is a question of respect... You come in France ? Don't expect respect from the local if you don't try to show them some...
The notion that everyone wherever in the world should speak YOUR language sounds extremely rude and un-respectful to me and quite a lot of people in the world beside me...
Maybe you can now start to understand why so many of the locals wherever in the world are starting to despise the English speaking crowd and why, in some situations and some countries, the local US Embassies are counselling their citizen to say that they are Canadians and not Americans when trouble start brewing...
And, for conclusion, I should say that I do speak French (Native...), English (You can judge for yourself...), German (Spend 7 years in that country...), some Russian (Missions and school learned...), some Wolof (I lived 2 years in Senegal...) and even some Georgian...
And please, rest assured of one thing, I took no offence from your rant about France, the French and the French language. I hope that you will not take offence from mine... Georgia On My Mind...
4th May 2009 12:47 pm
TazDaz
Member Since: 07 May 2007
Location: South East Essex
Posts: 2858
Gurvan wrote:
...The first language of Europe is still German last time I looked... Followed by French... Maybe you should start learning something new...
Not according to Wikipedia (which IMHO is pretty good for an Encyclopedia) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_the_European_Union
"while English is the most widely spoken language at 51%"
Source: Data for EU25, published before 2007 EU enlargement
English remains the most widely spoken foreign language throughout Europe. 38% of EU citizens state that they have sufficient skills in English to have a conversation (excluding the citizens of the United Kingdom and Ireland, the two English-speaking countries).
Gurvan wrote:
Fourthly, speaking a foreigner language is a question of respect... You come in France ? Don't expect respect from the local if you don't try to show them some...
I quite agree with that
4th May 2009 1:17 pm
Gurvan
Member Since: 02 Jan 2005
Location: Germany... Not far from both the US and Hard German rock...
Posts: 1089
I meant mother's tongue language...
Germany still has the biggest population in Europe and, frankly, when I hear the level of English of my fellow citizens, I doubt that "38% of EU citizens state that they have sufficient skills in English to have a conversation" !
Anyway, that was just a rant in the far-fetched hope of widening some horizons...
EDIT : funnily the French version of the page you are showing from Wikipedia show different values most notably, to my point of view, the fact that, as a mother's tongue, French is more spoken than English, which according to the population of the countries seems more right to me. There are more Frenchmen than Irish, Maltese and British together. If you add to the French speaker, about one third of the Belgians who are the French speaking part of that country, then... Georgia On My Mind...
4th May 2009 1:23 pm
AndrewS Tarquin of the Desert
Member Since: 06 May 2005
Location: Y...... because I can
Posts: 10438
Didnt the French government ban English words a few years ago I was working in the Alsace and had a conversation with a manager of a clothing company who told me about the ban. He was going nuts because Tshirt Jeans and loads of other clothing words were considered English.
Oh I always try and learn some of the language whilst in other country's Making the effort seems to pay off.In the Beginning there was nothing, which exploded.
4th May 2009 2:44 pm
Gurvan
Member Since: 02 Jan 2005
Location: Germany... Not far from both the US and Hard German rock...
Posts: 1089
That should be more seen as a tentative to preserve French a truly living language than strictly as a law...
On that aspect of the question, the French-speaking Canadians are much more strict than we are. they would use the word "Courriel" for "email" and they actually enforce that use ! On the same aspect, you will find parking in France and in the French language whereas the Canadian would use a "stationnement"... Same thing but they consider Parking to be too English for them to use whereas in France we do use the word commonly... Same goes, for instance, for the word shopping which is understood commonly in France but replaced by "magasinage" in French-canadian. That word "magasinage" would not be widely understood in France...
The only law that actually exists is that the official language of France is French and that every treaty or agreement signed MUST have an official and internationally used, French translation...
And rest assured that this is not against English... It would be the same if English was not as widely used as an international language and replaced in that role by, say, German, Chinese or Afrikaans... French is part of our national heritage and taken quite seriously and frankly, you can get by in a lot of country by using only French... Why should we bother learning something else ? A lot of French don't cause they don't need it... That is all... Reminds me a lot of that other folk who still have "Honni soit qui mal y pense" as a motto for one of their most noble order... Georgia On My Mind...
4th May 2009 3:12 pm
Willy Eckerslike
Member Since: 12 Jan 2009
Location: N Yorks
Posts: 1612
Many moons ago a bunch of Frenchies got fed up with France being invaded with Italians so they moved over here to join us brits. Now most of these men where called Norman so we called them the Normans. So they came over and we had a bit of a fight and made friends (they made a bloody big carpet about it). In order to get along we adopted most of their language which we renamed English. So actually the English speak proper French not non of that Italian French what they speak over there now.
Or am I wrong
Pierre.Club Pie n Pea
One life....Fish it
D3 Gone but not forgotten
Club Men of Oak
Club Walnut sniffers
D4 Van owner
Ents long lost Uncle
4th May 2009 3:23 pm
Gurvan
Member Since: 02 Jan 2005
Location: Germany... Not far from both the US and Hard German rock...
Posts: 1089
Let us say that this more or less correct but that you are omitting that small print part where they (The Normans...) were actually vassals of the French King of that time which should more or less translate into nowadays parlance into : "You should bloody well respect your better !"
Oops...
I goofed...
Again....
Anyway, the Anglo-French history is an old and complicated one, ain't it ?
As for the law, I forgot one about English : "Thou shall do not advertisement in English (Or any other foreign language...) in France without providing on the same ad for a French Translation"... That gives us the dubious advantage of having a translation for things like "Just Do It", "I'm lovin' It" and other stuff like that...Georgia On My Mind...
4th May 2009 3:58 pm
SJR
Member Since: 09 Aug 2006
Location: East Manchester
Posts: 4030
Gurvan wrote:
Georgia On My Mind...
Gurvan
SO does having this in your signature strip in ENGLISH mean you are breaking French Law I believe that every human has a finite number of heart-beats. I don't intend to waste any of mine running around doing exercises.
Buzz Aldrin (1930 -
4th May 2009 4:07 pm
Gurvan
Member Since: 02 Jan 2005
Location: Germany... Not far from both the US and Hard German rock...
Posts: 1089
Could be... But, in case of any problem, I will organize a strike, on behalf the Disco3 users, for the"liberation of the use of English in an English forum !" Georgia On My Mind...
4th May 2009 4:13 pm
SN
Member Since: 03 Jan 2006
Location: Romiley
Posts: 13710
Gurvan - I am generally in agreement with you - despite the universalness of English I am embaressed how somemany English speakers assume everyone else SHOULD speak English in their presence even in a foreign country. I always try to speak some local lingo if I can (stumped a bit in Catalunya where they put Catalan and English above Spanish) - what makes that difficult though, is that often (France excluded ) locals will 'practise' their English on you first.
countrywide did you never try and converse with the eurovan2.com forum members in German (even by babelfish) when you had the van?
I have an O-Level (GCSE for youngsters) qualification in German and it saddens me that I didn't keep it up (My lad is making the same mistake ) ) though when I worked in Munich 10 years ago I was able to scratch my way around (crusty old German market sellers making this a necessity).
So to the French for their attitude - if it was the other way around I'd expect our Government to do nothing less.Steve N | 21MY Defender | 08MY Discovery 3 (history) | 06MY Discovery 3 (ancient history)
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It really takes the rug from under their feet
Followed by French... Maybe you should start learning something new... 
I was working in the Alsace and had a conversation with a manager of a clothing company who told me about the ban. He was going nuts because Tshirt Jeans and loads of other clothing words were considered English.
) ) though when I worked in Munich 10 years ago I was able to scratch my way around (crusty old German market sellers making this a necessity).
