pagoda
Member Since: 13 Aug 2009
Location: Not London Anymore (or the US for that matter)
Posts: 1923
  
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| Land Cruiser Roll - would a Disco 3 would fare better? |
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This is a shot of one of the vehicles we use for training courses that was rolled during a period of instruction on evasive driving last week. The driver was trapped inside for an hour or so, but she's fine. A little shaken.
It was a relatively slow roll; it went over one and half times.
I was very surprised at how the vehicle failed to protect the occupants. The car was not going hugely quickly and yet the front has completely failed. It's got me thinking about whether we need to switch to cages, or switch to vehicles that can better withstand a fairly gentle roll.
My question: anyone got any idea whether a D3 would fail like this? I can't find any shots of a rolled D3 on the net so have no idea. I find this photo pretty worrying (not least because it was one of my team that got squished, but as a 4x4 owner with a family). I would have expected the Toyota to have some sort of integral protection for the passengers.
Views appreciated.
PAGODA
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 11th May 2010 9:47 am |
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Ken
Member Since: 20 Feb 2006
Location: Here
Posts: 10865
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4 years in car safety development is alot
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| 11th May 2010 9:53 am |
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countrywide
Member Since: 16 Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 6019
  
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Isn't the Toyota a pretty old design. I think safety has improved a lot since that was put on the drawing board.
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| 11th May 2010 9:56 am |
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countrywide
Member Since: 16 Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 6019
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Ken beat me to it 
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| 11th May 2010 9:57 am |
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sarumlight
Member Since: 07 Nov 2008
Location: Off the Plain
Posts: 1590
 
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If it just rolled and didn't drop as well, a D3/D4 would stand up a lot better than that. When Land Rover designed the D3 they had access to Volvo's safety engineers and their input led to a lot of improvements. There's boron steel reinforcement in the A pillars which makes them very tough. The Volvo XC90 has the best roll performance of any 4x4 (apparently it was rolled six times during testing and the doors could still be opened) but the D3 is a lot better than the Toyota appears to have been.
Glad the driver is OK.
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| 11th May 2010 10:03 am |
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DG
Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50934
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The Cruiser doesn't have many (any?) of the electrickery safeguards that will try it's damnedest to keep the D3 \ 4 upright in the first place. There are too many variables in a rollover accident to say it's ever going to be completely safe ...but if it were to happen I don't think I'd want to do it in any other vehicle 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
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| 11th May 2010 10:48 am |
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Navigator
Member Since: 17 Mar 2010
Location: Stay at Home. One of the lives you save could be your own.
Posts: 5104
 
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| Re: Land Cruiser Roll - would a Disco 3 would fare better? |
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pagoda wrote: period of instruction on evasive driving
That sounds very interesting. I wonder how many others on the forum might be interested in learning a bit of that? It is not just Volvo's we need to look out for now-a-days. 
pagoda wrote: trapped inside for an hour or so
I'm interested in what trapped the driver, and how she was released without opening up the bodyshell like a tin of sardines. Glad she is OK.
There are indeed no pictures on the Internet that can be easily found of D3s rolling or rolled - yet there are thousands of pictures and videos of other Landrovers doing it. Is this because D3s are very difficult to roll? There is a whole lot of electronics working on stability - maybe it all works quite well?
However, no amount of electronics will stop a roll starting if the transverse angle is too high. So what sort of side tilt have people managed (without the roll, obviously, or we would have the pics!) I am happy to admit this is my BIG fear off-roading.  A vaccine does not stop you catching a virus, or passing it on, or getting ill from it, really ill. It does reduce the likelyhood of you dying when really, really ill. Stay Alive - KEEP AWAY FROM PEOPLE.
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| 11th May 2010 11:04 am |
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Gaza
Member Since: 08 Jan 2009
Location: At the foot of the Lammermuirs
Posts: 448
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Ken wrote:4 years in car safety development is alot
Given the reg (2000), I think this would have been the second-gen LC first introduced in 1996, so probably 7 years behind the D3. If 4 years is a lot then 7 years is an eternity! 
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| 11th May 2010 11:19 am |
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Ken
Member Since: 20 Feb 2006
Location: Here
Posts: 10865
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Had to type quick to beat CW 
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| 11th May 2010 11:22 am |
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Roel
Member Since: 16 Aug 2008
Location: home
Posts: 1215
 
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Just needs a new front and rearlight and it's up for sale. Roel
1997 Camel Trophy Disco ex-P101JWK (traded it for a Britains 42101)
1984 90 TD5
2005 G4 Disco 3 BN55WPT
Also member of club MTR
and Club Faultmate
Interested in my 4x4 history see my website: www.mudmachine.webklik.nl
Sorry it's in Dutch and with google translator it gets funny.
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| 11th May 2010 6:21 pm |
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pagoda
Member Since: 13 Aug 2009
Location: Not London Anymore (or the US for that matter)
Posts: 1923
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Thanks for the replies. They're very useful in the most part, as some of the points will aid the discussions I need to have with the chaps who provide the Toyota fleet. I was amazed at the damage caused by a slow roll, and the points about electronic wizardry in new cars are most relevant. It's worth pointing out, though, that we disable the ABS and traction control on these cars to allow us to teach J and extended K turns, as well as cadence braking. We'll need to look at the trade-offs between what we get from the training, and the risk to our staff. I think I can guess which way we're heading. We'll also want to look at whether we're happy with this fleet of ageing vehicles, and whether we should insist on vehicles with a roll cage, or newer vehicles.
I'm not one to cow-tow to the health and safety crowd and we've fought hard to keep in some of the training that has been at risk, but we were very lucky this time and so are duty bound to revisit the whole module. PAGODA
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| 11th May 2010 7:51 pm |
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MartinR
Member Since: 27 Jan 2008
Location: Oxon
Posts: 708
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Silly question perhaps, but shouldn't you be teaching the techniques in the vehicles they're likely to need them in, with all the standard kit enabled? Being able to j-turn a landcruiser with ABS disabled might not help much if they're driving a nice merc when they need to do it! OK if they're off to a part of the world where a knackered LC is the standard kit I guess, but I hope you see my point!
Back to the original question, years ago I saw a D1 on the hard shoulder of the M25 at the end of a long trail of debris. Looked like he'd lost control of a caravan, and from the denting and absence of glass the Disco had been all the way over and back onto its wheels again. No evidence of the roof caving in, and four rather shaken people standing next to it.
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| 11th May 2010 9:36 pm |
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