Member Since: 09 Sep 2019
Location: Bolton
Posts: 20
Discovery 3 TDV6, New Oil Pump Fitted, No Oil Pressure
Hi Disco 3 Enthusiasts,
I am new here and my name is Mark.
Got some major problems/concerns with my 05 Discovery Mk3, 2.7 TDV6 (6 speed manual, chipped 240BHP). The oil pressure warning light is on, done an oil pressure test with a gauge (most recent latest proceedure/test done) connected to pressure sensor port, pressure test gauge reading ZERO when cranking on starter motor. Praying it hasn't spun a shell, impossible to tell without looking which is totally beyond my means and capabilities.
Have removed viscous fan, engine feels free and engine turns easily on a socket and extension bar, doesn't feel like its spun a shell and started chewing the crank. How sensitive are these engines??
Briefly; I have done a major rebuild/upgrade! Well not quite, I replaced the oil pump for the up-rated/revised one with a stronger mounting where the timing belt tensioner fits on bolt, why ever didn’t the design engineers screw the bolt in the cast iron engine casing behind it?
I've been working on the vehicle for some time; it hasn't run for around 4-5 months.
Was a challenge removing starter motor and keying flywheel, also made a tool to secure timing belt sprocket/bottom viscous fan pulley to the water pump so it wouldn't move when tightening the crank bolt.
After much effort, finally got it all back together, have fitted all sorts of new parts:
New BGA Oil Pump
Full T/Belt kit, OEM DAYCO from Land Rover
New Water Pump
New Viscous Fan Pulley
Fitted a New HPFP Belt kit
Reconditioned EGR Valves
All quite a challenge as it’s the first disco 3 I’ve owned. Also had a D2 TD5 some years ago (the turbo was caput due to a loose oil pump bolt in the sump), that's another story!
Ok, What's what? When the oil pump was off I cleaned the front engine case with Comma HyperClean, now concerned that cleaner/engine detergent has entered the small orifice when the oil pump feeds the engine?
Does the oil that enters through the whole/orifice feed directly to the crank? Does it have too pump oil up the gallery to the oil filter/cooler mounted in the V between the cylinder heads?
I also removed the sump as it was rusty and whilst the sump was off, I cleaned the lower engine internals with hyper clean to remove all the dirty oil/residue.
Also, when I first built it up, I didn't prime the oil filter or soak it in oil, also poured some cleaner down that as well! Duh!
Having rebuilt the thing with great care and attention, I first removed the fuel pump relay and fuse thinking that would prevent the engine from starting.
As soon as I turned the key, the engine started immediately so I switched it off immediately, it didn't run for more than 1 second (you can view the video in one ofmy folders shared).
I then waited an hour for the engine to cool down (really, it's only 5C at the moment being mid December), this time I removed the glow plug relay and fuse, then cranked it again on the key, guess what? It started instantly, couldn't believe it, switched it off immediately.
I then removed an ECM fuse plus one other, can confirm later if required.
I then cranked it again on the key, and turned the engine over for around 5 seconds, oil warning light on.
I then removed the oil filter, had forgotten to soak and prime it in oil, poured around 2 litres of oil in the oil filter housing/oil cooler well.
Then removed the oil pressure sensor and connected an oil pressure connector/oil pressure gauge in place of the oil pressure sensor that sends signal to the warning light?
Cranked again for 5 - 8 seconds, oil pressure gauge reading ZERO. Not turned engine oever on the key since. There is around 5 litres of oil in the sump and it's up to the top on the dipstick.
I had primed the new oil pump before fitting as per Haynes Manual (Useless) and had injected around 100 ml of 5w/30 engine oil, rotating the pump, obviously a woefully inadequate method.
I then inspected the old oil pump and had a good idea, I decided to remove the blanking plug on the old oil pump and it came out easily, no problem.
Aha I thought, I'll do the same with the new pump, removed the fan/front T/belt cover to do the same? Guess what, the blanking cap is behind a timing belt idler pulley and impossible to get to without removing the timing belt? Great!!!!!
Anyway, I proceeded, removed the new belt and pulley, used a new hardened 10mm hex/Allen key (shortened as very little clearance to fit key), used an extension bar, unbelievably it would not move and started to round off the key, it was tight, I thought I was going to break the oil pump casing, decided not to bother, refitted belt and new timing belt bolt, yet more expense (as no expense spared). I have since spoken with the following people:
Tim at the LR Centre Limited, Liverpool
Chris at Diesel Craft Ltd, Cheshire
Tim was most helpful and referred me to Chris (Chris really helpful and gave me his best advice), said to remove all 6 diesel injectors? Tim was of the opinion that it might have spun a shell; Chris said I would be extremely unlucky, where have I heard that before.
I suggested to them both that I was thinking of over filling it with engine oil (suggested by a friend), around 8-10 litres in order to prime the pump as it doesn't like air? Would also help bathe the crank in oil??
Tim said it may start running on oil and Chris said the crank would splash in oil and make rotation slow, and it needs speed to prime the pump?
Not wanting to remove the glow plugs (remember it started with glow plug relay and fuse removed), awesome??!
Chris suggested I remove all 6 diesel injectors in order to take the load off the shells and help the engine to crank faster in order to build up oil pressure.
A friend has made a good suggestion (not sure if it’s too late given what I've told you/done so far?)
Suggested over-filling with engine oil and bathing the crank, turning it over by hand on the crank bolt? Removing all 6 injectors creates a new chapter, not really wanting to go there; I could remove the new oil pump and prime/fill it with jelly/engine grease? Should have done that before fitting, I just did what the Haynes manual said!
QUESTION??? How much oil would it take to fill the engine up to the crank journals?
Is it already too late?
I once ran a Subaru EJ20 GC8 engine with oil light on? It lasted 20 minutes before disintegrating the crank. I have built many engines, most K series rovers and the oil warning light usually goes out after 5 - 10 seconds, not wanting to take the risk on this occasion?
In hindsight, I can't believe what I have done! How sensitive are the shells, I know they aren't tabbed.
Really cannot afford to go any further, if it has spun a shell I am stuck! Vehicle stood on axle stands, air suspension tank depleted.
Has anyone got a short motor in the workshop/shed or whatever? Can you fill it with used engine oil and tell how much oil I would need to bathe the crank and fill/prime the oil pump by hand?
I'd like to get it running for Christmas?? Been too long already.
Please help? Thanks, thanks, thanks
You are welcome to view my progress/sequence of events.
Could you make your user name shorter please. Am I Gammon or Woke ? - I neither know nor care.
2016 Discovery 4 Landmark
2011 Mercedes Benz SL350 (R230)
1973 MG B GT V8 - 3.9L John Eales engine, 5 speed R380 gearbox, since 1975.
1959 MGA roadster - 1.9L Peter Burgess Engine - 5 speed gearbox
Past LRs - Multiple FFRs, Discos & a Series I - some petrol, some diesel,
none Electric or H2 fuel cell - yet.
There are 10 types of people in this world: Those who understand binary, and those who don’t.
17th Dec 2019 1:19 pm
Disco_Mikey
Member Since: 29 May 2007
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Posts: 20726
Even when priming a new pump, it can take 5/6/7 seconds to build pressure and for the warning light to go out at idle speed, and much, much longer when cranking on the key
I doubt you have done anything wrong, just they do take a bit of time to build pressure
That said, when you say rebuilt, was the engine running before doing the pump?My D3 Build Thread
Member Since: 22 Sep 2010
Location: Notts.
Posts: 8069
Very basic question, you have fitted the oil filter with the bottom spigot in the right place. You could try taking the injectors out and turning with the starter as already suggested, you will get a pressure reading turning with starter if everything is ok.
In times before autos I have had to tow them after a major overhaul to get them to start, although you have not done a major overhaul.It can when others can't,
It will when others won't,
It goes where others don't.
17th Dec 2019 2:22 pm
Room_For_Improvement
Member Since: 09 Sep 2019
Location: Bolton
Posts: 20
Good day Guys,
Apologies for the lengthy reply? I am not sure how to respond to your replies individually so am just adding this message to the reply button?
My username has been changed; I guess the administrator is in command? Thanks for that.
Yes, the engine was running perfectly before I removed the pump around 4 months ago, it has taken so long due to expenses and not wanting to pay for JLR workshop tools, so made my own.
I included a short video in one of the folders shared on my MS One drive account. As said, the engine started immediately, and ran ever so smoothly and quiet, I had obviously done something right first time around?
I could remove the oil filter again and pour 1/2 a litre of Lucas Additive oil directly into the oil cooler housing well, am sure the small filter pipe on the bottom of the filter is correctly located/fitted into the hole/orifice as I was looking directly into the cooler housing with inspection lamp and magnifying glasses? As I said in first message posted this morning, when I’d removed the filter a month or two ago, I did pour a small amount of engine cleaner into the well, am now somewhat concerned that I have degreased/de-lubed the crank on first turn of the key.
I also cleaned the front engine case/housing where the oil pump fits and some could have entered the hole/orifice that feeds from the pump directly up to the gallery? I presume the oil has to pass through the oil filter before returning the cranks and lubricating the bearing shells?
The battery was fully charged however have done a battery test and it's only good for around 600-650 AH, not the full 900 AH.
I removed the sump to recondition that as it was a bit rusty, whilst the sump was removed, I sprayed plenty of Comma Hyper-Clean up into the ladder frame and pick up strainer pipe, did not remove the oil pick-up strainer pipe as I also washed it from the oil pump housing case down into the lower sump. The vehicle had full service history when I bought it, and the previous owner spent 1000's maintaining it, I thought the vehicle was worthy of a challenge.
Briefly, I bought it with a seized lower steering column, and the air suspension compressor was goosed! Have done all of that, it also had around 100 DTC codes stored, and has taken some time to solve them all?
The first time I plugged my ICarsoft I930 into the OBD2 port, I was getting dozens and dozens of error codes:
Fuel trim imbalance?
Turbocharger Wastegate over boost malfunction, and so on, and so on?
The first time I drove it a mile, it went like snail! Put my foot on the accelerator pedal and was overtaken by a pedestrian!
After I'd freed up the waste-gate/VVT actuator mechanism, I went out in it for a quick run, and put
my foot on the accelerator pedal, it accelerated like a rocket, I couldn't believe how fast it was, wow! Incredible, it's a racer, not a Land Rover! Plus, it's the 6 speed manual, have done full oil service on everything, the trans, transfer case, front and rear diff's, fitted all new Neodymium sump/drain plugs as well?
Hopefully you can all see what matters most reading this message?
As said, I really just want to get the oil pressure up to factory spec? 40 - 50 psi or thereabouts?
I am petrified to start the engine, I could run it for 10 seconds and see if the light goes out, or leave the pressure gauge connected and observe carefully?
Am now reading about removing all 6 diesel injectors but that could take me a month or two? And would also have to get them professionally cleaned and serviced at a diesel injection centre, in turn that could create yet more problems?
I have discovered that for every part removed and new parts fitted, special tools are required? I've invested as much in tools as parts, and it’s twice over budget. I live on limited means and cannot afford to go much further. Fitting a short motor is out of the question, totally impossible without major help and all the right tools?
A friend told me to fill the engine with 10-12 litres of engine oil and hand prime the pump, which would also surely bathe the crank in fresh oil?? How much oil would you estimate I would need to do that? Also, because of the outside temperature here up in the NW of England, it's around 3-5 degrees C outside, which would mean the oil has a higher viscosity, like treacle! So the pump would have to work twice as hard, and since it's breathing on air, it isn't priming or pumping anything.
I am thinking? The amount of load and stress on the bearing shells must be phenomenal? Obviously removing the injectors would be a smart move, but again, it's something I am not equipped to do at the moment, and would have to be extra careful not to contaminate anything, and cause more problems.
Yes it ran like perfectly last time before removing the pump, and when it first started on the key a couple of days ago, I couldn't believe how smooth and quiet it sounded.
Now my confidence isn't what it should be, if it were a TD5 or K series, I wouldn't have any concerns and would just run it until it built up pressure or went pop?
I cranked it on the key for around 5 maybe 10 seconds at most with the oil pressure gauge fitted and as observed/stated, it read ZERO. That's my main concern?
Whoever designed these Ford Lion engines needs to get a life!
We know best?
All help and advice appreciated.
Worst case scenario, what are my options???!
Cheers Guys..
Last edited by Room_For_Improvement on 17th Dec 2019 8:40 pm. Edited 1 time in total
A friend told me to fill the engine with 10-12 litres of engine oil and hand prime the pump, which would also surely bathe the crank in fresh oil??.................because of the outside temperature here up in the NW of England, it's around 3-5 degrees C outside, which would mean the oil has a higher viscosity,
Yes the oil will have a higher viscosity at a lower temperature. It might pay to warm the sump to lower the viscosity of the oil when next you turn the engine over.
I would be very careful about overfilling the sump, and certainly wouldn't start the engine with an overfilled sump.
NJSSAm I Gammon or Woke ? - I neither know nor care.
2016 Discovery 4 Landmark
2011 Mercedes Benz SL350 (R230)
1973 MG B GT V8 - 3.9L John Eales engine, 5 speed R380 gearbox, since 1975.
1959 MGA roadster - 1.9L Peter Burgess Engine - 5 speed gearbox
Past LRs - Multiple FFRs, Discos & a Series I - some petrol, some diesel,
none Electric or H2 fuel cell - yet.
There are 10 types of people in this world: Those who understand binary, and those who don’t.
17th Dec 2019 3:37 pm
Room_For_Improvement
Member Since: 09 Sep 2019
Location: Bolton
Posts: 20
There are some minor errors in my messages, I meant the lower crank pulley/wheel that drives the aux belt for the alternator, W/Pump, etc? Am sure you could find more slight grammatical errors however nothing so severe or inconsistent as land rover workshop/service manuals.
17th Dec 2019 3:48 pm
Gareth Site Moderator
Member Since: 07 Dec 2004
Location: Bramhall
Posts: 26698
Personally, I’d just fire it up and give a good while to build its pressure.
They don’t go through all this rigmarole at the factory, just fire it up and let the oil pump through.
Also, I stand to be corrected, but it think these engines have very low oil pressure anyway. I think I saw something in single figure psi at idle, so you may be disappointed if expecting 50 odd !!
Good luck, I know how you feel, having just rebuilt a Series 2 petrol engine. First start was always a nervous time, but immense relief when a) it didn’t blow up, and b) the oil pressure light went out!
17th Dec 2019 5:12 pm
Room_For_Improvement
Member Since: 09 Sep 2019
Location: Bolton
Posts: 20
Regarding over-filling the engine with 10-12 litres of engine oil, I would only do that and rotate/crank the engine by hand on the main crank bolt? Was a suggestion to add enough oil in order to fully submerse the crank ideally with the oil level being just below the bottom of the cylinder bore liners, that being the case surely the oil pump would take in enough oil to more thoroughly prime and lubricate it? I would only turnover the engine by hand perhaps a dozen full revolutions, I was not thinking of cranking the engine on the starter motor with so much oil in.
Having performed said procedure, I'd drain a gallon or whatever quantity required so that there is clean engine oil in with the level up to the top of the dipstick? With the correct oil level, I’d crank on the key with all relays/fuses removed so that it could not start under any circumstances? Having done that maybe cranking it for 10 to 30 seconds, I'd then let the oil level settle, check the oil level again and then plug in all fuses/relays and give it a go for a clean start? Would then be more confident that at least there is a greater prospect of shells surviving and engine running perfectly?
My one concern is whether or not any oil would enter a bore/chamber. Would it be advisable to disconnect the turbocharger oil feed and return pipes or wouldn't that make any difference? I appreciate you said it's not advisable, WHAT COULD POSSIBLY GO WRONG, IS IT A POSSIBLE SOLUTION? Just I don't know how much oil I would have to add, hence wondering if you know of anyone with a defunct short motor which you could experiment on with used engine oil? I am asking if anyone thinks it's a plausible idea, I don't know? I am just speculating?? All options, suggestions, and most cost effective simple solutions are on the table?!
One other point??
I applied a trace of Elring Dirko HT to the ladder frame gasket/rubber bead which the oil pump sits on? On first crank the engine only ran for 1/2 a second, I thought maybe the orifice on the oil pump and drain port by the crank seal might be blocked with silicone instant gasket? I decided to investigate if that could have occurred by making a template and using 3 to 5 times as much silicone sealant?? It appears that I do not have to worry about that in any respect as you can see here:
Thanks DiscoMikey, thanks Richard, cheers all eyes and primed pump gears?!
17th Dec 2019 5:18 pm
M3DPO
Member Since: 22 Sep 2010
Location: Notts.
Posts: 8069
If the oil goes through the oil filter and out through the spigot/nipple at the bottom of the filter and then continues to lubricate the rest of the engine would it not be possible to take the filter out and connect a pipe into where the spigot/nipple fits?- connect a hand pump to the other end of the pipe and pump oil into the engine that way, you may even get a reading on your pressure gauge. I have read elsewhere that the pressure can be as low as 9psi at tick over you could easily achieve that pressure with a hand pump, the type used for filling gearboxes etc It can when others can't,
It will when others won't,
It goes where others don't.
17th Dec 2019 6:18 pm
Disco_Mikey
Member Since: 29 May 2007
Location: Dundee, Scotland
Posts: 20726
You should not use any sealer on the lower face of the pump...My D3 Build Thread
Member Since: 15 Jan 2016
Location: GL
Posts: 10359
Don't add 10 litres of oil. Pointless and dangerous
5 litres is enough to start these on.
Just start the car, and let it run for 10 - 15 seconds and see if it build pressure. If it starts to sound bad, turn off straight away.
Don't waste time removing injectors, and trying the get oil pressure up without it running. Not worth it on these. Just start engine for 10 seconds.
Make sure the long 8 mm bolts that go up from under the engine at the front into the oil pump are fitted and tight
17th Dec 2019 7:55 pm
jenseneverest
Member Since: 12 Jun 2017
Location: somewhere
Posts: 760
Normally the oil light takes about a second to go off with a running engine, with all the lines now cleared probably take about 2 or 3 seconds once running.
If you didn't soak a new oil filter in oil it will also take about 2/3 seconds.
That sealant would worry me, a little of that in the wrong place will cause a big issue.
If it were me i would start it at idle, if i had no pressure after 5 seconds then would strip it all back down and check the crank bearings.
I guess it is possible that your new oil pump is a dud ?
To get oil pressure up off just the starter motor it would be a lot of cranking over, probably 30 plus seconds
17th Dec 2019 7:56 pm
Room_For_Improvement
Member Since: 09 Sep 2019
Location: Bolton
Posts: 20
Hi DiscoMikey, I applied a smear/trace of Dirko HT as per official PDF workshop manual and thined it out before fitting the pump, the lower crank craddle/ladder frame is firmly bolted and untouched. The body is on the chassis and I have no means whatsoever to remove body and strip the engine to replace the shells? I doubt the pump is a dud? I wouldn't know? Its a new generic BGA pump supplied by General Traffic so doubt anything is wrong with it? If I run it for 10-20 seconds and the light doesn't go out and there is no pressure build up on the gauge, then I don't have a clue what's going on inside? It's parked on my drive? Not in a warm well lit workshop which has made the entire proceedure all the more challenging? Tim at the LR Centre Limited told me it could have already spun a shell so I have nothing to loose!!!
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