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Rusty boot floor / Body removal
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jenseneverest
 


Member Since: 12 Jun 2017
Location: somewhere
Posts: 758

United Kingdom 2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 Base 7 Seat Manual Zambezi SilverDiscovery 3

Is the wear on the big end bearings the same on both the cap and rod ? Are the wear patches directly opposite each other ?

i would be very interested in the different bearing crush, comparing the Ford vs Disco bearings. (if there even is any difference that is)

All the pictures of disco bearings i have seen show weird (and similar) wear patters, and could indicate either too much or too little crush on the disco - as if the housing is oval somehow. This is just a complete guess on my part, and impossible to prove without checking with all new components.

I said a while back in one of the threads, that the crank and all housing's should be checked properly.
The crank should be polished at the very least, a good engine shop should then get all the journal's to a similar size, IE matched to the smallest big end and main size, allowing you to fit the bigger sized bearings throughout.

Just my 2 cents Thumbs Up
  
Post #223697019th Jun 2021 11:09 am
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Breg90
 


Member Since: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Falkirk
Posts: 347

United Kingdom 2008 Discovery 3 TDV6 XS Manual Java BlackDiscovery 3

Jensen,

You have made me re read my post from last night and edit it slightly to make my conclusion clearer -

    the 2.7, 3.0 (european) & 3.0 (ford F150) versions of the Ford LION engine have the same big end and main journal diameters. I.e. larger nominal diameter bearings are not available (you would need a larger crank journal diameters to use these any way - not possible even if the bearings exist).


Under size bearings don't seem to exist either. But as I think the root cause of the bearing issues is loss of the lubricant film under high load, resulting in bearing wear from crank to shell contact, then under size bearings would:

1/. Reduce bearing load capacity due to smaller bearing diameter - not desirable
2/. If undersize bearing were available (aftermarket) - likelihood is they would NOT be in 3 different tolerance grades. This would prevent selection of the shells to control the bearing clearance. If you were unlucky you would end up with higher than desired bearing clearances giving lower oil pressure and hence lower bearing load capacity - not desirable.

I should clarify that I have concluded that the main attraction of the Ford F150 bearings is to be able to select the bearing grades to achieve the best bearing clearances (lower end of the tolerance band). This will give me better oil pressure, hence the bearings will be able to take a higher load before the lubricant film is compromised compared to a bearing at the high end of the clearance tolerance. Hopefully the load point where the bearing oil film is compromised will be above the load applied by the engine to the bearings. This should result in a bearing assembly that will never lose its oil film in operation, therefore the bearings should not wear in the future.

The nice higher capacity coating on the bearing shells will help prevent bearing fatigue (cyclical loading on the shell coating from constant variation in the oil film pressure during engine operation). The higher the engine torque capacity, the greater the variation of this pressure loading. Hence a greater coating load capacity is needed to prevent fatigue of the coating to backing metal bond. I think Ford uprated the coating to cope with the higher torque capability of the 3.0 over the earlier 2.7 engine. But that coating will not likely resist contact wear if the oil film is compromised under load by any meaningful amount. Hence the coating upgrade is only useful if I have the engine tuned/remapped in my view.

Its all about maintaining the oil film! Multiple factors to that, clearance in the bearing being one, but still digging into it this too see what other levers I can pull.

Re my crank:

I have measured it up - there is no journal ovality detectable with a 0.001mm graduated micrometer. Measurements carried out at room temp after the crank and micrometer had been left in the house to stabilize at room temperature over night (over kill....). All diameters within the LR and Ford tolerance band.

Wear patterns:

Big ends - all in the same focused location on the upper shell as you would expect. From pictures others have posted this seems consistent across all engines

Mains - Wear across the lower shell (see the load form the compression and power stroke, so the highest load shell.

Bearing crush:

I have not checked yet. I'm used to thick walled journal bearings in industrial compressors, pumps and gas turbines where with some shim and a bit of pastigauge you can check the bearing nip/crush. Not got my head around how to do this on a thin wall journal bearing with out distorting the shell and getting a false reading. Pointers and tips more than welcome on this (and other) subjects.

Adrian[/list]
 Series one 1949 - in bits, chassis is strapped to the ceiling in my garage (beside the canoe)
LR 90 - In bits
Disco 3 - currently in bits 
 
Post #223699119th Jun 2021 1:22 pm
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jenseneverest
 


Member Since: 12 Jun 2017
Location: somewhere
Posts: 758

United Kingdom 2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 Base 7 Seat Manual Zambezi SilverDiscovery 3

Okay sorry for my confusion, i was hoping you had options to use the different sized / colour coded "STD" bearing's within the limits of your ~STD crankshaft.
Great that the crank measures up within spec's Thumbs Up
I agree with all your other reasoning, and the Ford bearings do look like the better option. (anything has to be better than what was in there anyway IMO )
I switched to thicker engine oil about 50k miles ago in mine, if i had bought it new i probably would have done it as soon as out of warrantee as well, that w30 eng oil comes out like Censored on oil changes..... but that is another story all together....


Bearing crush, i am assuming it is possible with the main cap's ?? ...... certainly looks like it is on the big ends, but i am sure you get the idea from the copy paste below:

Quote:

Checking bearing crush, With the bearing shells fitted and the two main cap bolts torqued, the bearing shell inserts are forced to conform to the tunnel size of the block. By checking the 'bearing crush' the quality of bearing fit is ascertained. Undo and remove one bolt (either one) and, starting with a 0.075mm/ 0.003in feeler gauge, see if the feeler gauge will go into the gap between the cap and block. By using a range of feeler gauges the exact size of the gap can be determined. The allowable range is 0.075mm/0.003in to 0.015mm/ 0.006in. If no gap appears when the bolt is Main cap with one bolt removed. The other bolt is fully tensioned. Measure the bearing crush gap with feeler gauges. released there is something wrong with the bearing shells, they will, effectively, be loose because there will be no bearing crush present. Such a situation is not acceptable - try another set of shells. If the gap is over 0.20mm/0.008in it means there is too much crush, which is unacceptable because there is likely to be a resulting distortion at the partline. The set of shells will have to be exchanged for another. Alternatively, by mixing and matching the existing shells the desired bearing crush might be achieved. If there is a variation between the bearing shell combinations in each main cap, take one shell from a main cap that has a large crush height (0.15mm/0.006in plus) and change it with a shell from a bearing shell combination from a another main cap that has a small crush height. The ideal situation is to have all main bearing shell combinations with 'crush heights' of 0.10mm/0.004in to 0.125mm/0.005in. If there is insufficient bearing crush present the result is usually a spun bearing and, if this happens, serious and expensive engine damage will result
  
Post #223700019th Jun 2021 3:16 pm
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defector
 


Member Since: 23 Feb 2009
Location: Greater Manchester
Posts: 1419

United Kingdom 2008 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Zermatt SilverDiscovery 3

The modern and latest bearings are sputtered (probably the ones you have got) which are a better quality and harder wearing. This is the type of bearing (from Federal Mogul) that I fitted to my 2.7.
The bearings were tabbed and fitted to the later D4.
  
Post #223703619th Jun 2021 5:36 pm
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Breg90
 


Member Since: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Falkirk
Posts: 347

United Kingdom 2008 Discovery 3 TDV6 XS Manual Java BlackDiscovery 3

Re found the good video that shows the Ford power stroke 3.0 Lion engine out of the car and has been sectioned:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=ford+...M%3DHDRSC3
 Series one 1949 - in bits, chassis is strapped to the ceiling in my garage (beside the canoe)
LR 90 - In bits
Disco 3 - currently in bits 
 
Post #223706419th Jun 2021 9:08 pm
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sarumlight
 


Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Off the Plain
Posts: 1589

United Kingdom 2008 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Tonga GreenDiscovery 3

Interesting. So the designed life is 150,000 and US warranty is 100,000 miles?

Starting to wonder if a bearing change for a 2.7 after 180,000 miles would be a good investment, especially using the new bronze ones with tabs.
  
Post #223708819th Jun 2021 10:12 pm
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Breg90
 


Member Since: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Falkirk
Posts: 347

United Kingdom 2008 Discovery 3 TDV6 XS Manual Java BlackDiscovery 3

Sarumlight,

That made me laugh as well. Almost as if they know the bearings will wear out and the crank will snap.....

Adrian
 Series one 1949 - in bits, chassis is strapped to the ceiling in my garage (beside the canoe)
LR 90 - In bits
Disco 3 - currently in bits 
 
Post #223708919th Jun 2021 10:17 pm
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aja4x4
 


Member Since: 14 Apr 2019
Location: Westbury
Posts: 2459

United Kingdom 2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Zambezi SilverDiscovery 3

sarumlight wrote:
Interesting. So the designed life is 150,000 and US warranty is 100,000 miles?

Starting to wonder if a bearing change for a 2.7 after 180,000 miles would be a good investment, especially using the new bronze ones with tabs.


I think thats a good idea if its done right.
 Andrew

D3 2.7tdv6 2005
D4 3.0 SDV6 Commercial died and gone to LR heaven
D5 3.0 SDV6 HSE 
 
Post #223711520th Jun 2021 7:02 am
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sarumlight
 


Member Since: 06 Nov 2008
Location: Off the Plain
Posts: 1589

United Kingdom 2008 Discovery 3 TDV6 HSE Auto Tonga GreenDiscovery 3

If anyone else is wondering what bearing crush is, this might be useful

https://www.mahle-aftermarket.com/media/lo...ochure.pdf

Quite complicated this bearing stuff!
  
Post #223713020th Jun 2021 8:18 am
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DIRT44
 


Member Since: 07 Jan 2016
Location: Darmstadt
Posts: 3

Germany 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Manual Vienna GreenDiscovery 3
Ford F150 main bearings for 2.7L TDV6

I wonder if someone decoded the collor coding of the Ford F150 main bearings sold for the 3.0 Diesel power stroke.

https://www.tascaparts.com/v-2018-ford-f-1...ne--engine

I wonder if they fit the 2.7L if the anti-rotate cut is added?

Greetings,
Christian from LR Time
  
Post #225787320th Oct 2021 11:08 am
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aja4x4
 


Member Since: 14 Apr 2019
Location: Westbury
Posts: 2459

United Kingdom 2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Zambezi SilverDiscovery 3

Yes I have the sizes on my computer I will post them later if no one else beats me too it.
They are also posted on a thread about using those bearings.
They will fit the 2.7 engine if you cut the slot.
 Andrew

D3 2.7tdv6 2005
D4 3.0 SDV6 Commercial died and gone to LR heaven
D5 3.0 SDV6 HSE 
 
Post #225789120th Oct 2021 12:41 pm
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aja4x4
 


Member Since: 14 Apr 2019
Location: Westbury
Posts: 2459

United Kingdom 2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Zambezi SilverDiscovery 3

Hi Christian

Here are the crank sizes and bearing colours

Click image to enlarge
 Andrew

D3 2.7tdv6 2005
D4 3.0 SDV6 Commercial died and gone to LR heaven
D5 3.0 SDV6 HSE 
 
Post #225789320th Oct 2021 12:59 pm
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Breg90
 


Member Since: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Falkirk
Posts: 347

United Kingdom 2008 Discovery 3 TDV6 XS Manual Java BlackDiscovery 3
Re: Ford F150 main bearings for 2.7L TDV6

DIRT44 wrote:
I wonder if someone decoded the collor coding of the Ford F150 main bearings sold for the 3.0 Diesel power stroke.

https://www.tascaparts.com/v-2018-ford-f-1...ne--engine

I wonder if they fit the 2.7L if the anti-rotate cut is added?

Greetings,
Christian from LR Time


Christian,

Further up the page ‘Defector’ reports he has fitted them to a 2.7. I have not made any progress since feb due to some health issues. But all journals are identical in size between the 2.7 & 3.0. I have also measured up and compared the shells from my 2.7 with the ford spluttered 3.0 shells - within 0.001mm they are the same thickness.
I aim to fit my new shells and check bearing clearances this weekend. I’ll put up a post of the success!

Adrian
 Series one 1949 - in bits, chassis is strapped to the ceiling in my garage (beside the canoe)
LR 90 - In bits
Disco 3 - currently in bits 
 
Post #225792020th Oct 2021 4:03 pm
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DIRT44
 


Member Since: 07 Jan 2016
Location: Darmstadt
Posts: 3

Germany 2006 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Manual Vienna GreenDiscovery 3
Ford F150 main bearings for 2.7L TDV6

Thanks for posting the color coding aja4x4.
Unfortunately I do not understand the chart. What are these numbers? The main bearing diameter of the crank is about 70mm and the block is about 75mm. Can you help me to understand this?
I never ever took an engine appart before and I am kind of stupid.

You can follow my repair debacle on YouTube this Sunday. We post a Land Rover video weekly and our channel name is LR Time. It´s for entertainment only!

Adrian, hope you got over your health issues.

Christian from LT Time.
  
Post #225821622nd Oct 2021 10:03 am
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aja4x4
 


Member Since: 14 Apr 2019
Location: Westbury
Posts: 2459

United Kingdom 2005 Discovery 3 TDV6 SE Auto Zambezi SilverDiscovery 3

Hi Christian

I have always assumed that they are in inches, i have never looked into it to much as they bearings are not availible in the Uk but i must say that if my engine was to fail i would be using these bearings.

Kind regards Andrew
 Andrew

D3 2.7tdv6 2005
D4 3.0 SDV6 Commercial died and gone to LR heaven
D5 3.0 SDV6 HSE 
 
Post #225828222nd Oct 2021 5:12 pm
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