Member Since: 14 May 2012
Location: Ellikom
Posts: 232
Voltage regulator (DTC U3003)
Is there another voltage regulator in the D3 apart from the one in the alternator?
Little background: I'm struggling for more than a year with mutiple random errors causing diferent limp modes. Some months ago I started monitoring the battery voltage as we all know it is critical. Voltage is on the lowish side: 13.9-14.1V while driving.
After clearing all faults the first one to reappear is always U3003 17(AF). I used to ignore this one before because it was in the cell phone menu, but maybe it is the cause of all other errors.
Changed battery first because it is 7 years and easy to replace. Didn't change much, apart from a tick/spike(?) out of the audio speakers during cranking that is gone now.
Then changed the alternator by a re-manufactured one. Didn't change anything to the voltage.
At last changed this alternator again by an OEM one (almost unused re-manufactored one for sale now!). Still voltages between 13.9 and 14.1V, shouldn't this be a little more?2017-...: Disco II Td5 auto, 1999, BAS remap, HD TC and auto box Ashcroft, Allisport IC, ACE, 2" lift only coils, BF goodrich KM2 265/70R17, FF front and rear bumper, TF steering guard and tree sliders, nanocom.
2013-2017: Disco 3 TDV6 HSE aut. of 2008, Britpart treesliders, IIDTool, RLD sump guard, BFG KM2 265/70R17, adj. rods, BAS remap + EGRs blanked, silicon IC hoses.
2010-2013: Disco II Td5 of 2000, ACE, front Bearmach HD coils, rear SLS, GG AT2
28th Jul 2015 7:19 am
Nodge68
Member Since: 05 Sep 2014
Location: Newquay
Posts: 1014
My D3 was charging at 15.2 Volts all the time with the old battery. I found that bulbs failed or blackened running with this high charge voltage. When I changed the battery, the voltage dropped considerably. Just after starting the engine, the charge voltage is around 14.8 Volts. However over the 10 minutes of running, it drops slowly to about 14 Volts and stays there.Freelander SE 2005 Auto.
D3 TDV6. Gone.
28th Jul 2015 7:47 am
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
What was the temperature at time of test (as PCM controlled alternator voltage is proportional to temperature) and where are you testing voltage from?
I'm guessing that your recent temps are probably peaking around 25 deg C, with the car showing a little more when heat soaked. At these temps I would expect around 14.3v (decaying to a float when fully charged to no less than 13.4v). If the temp drops to say 16 deg C for night driving then the voltage would increase to around 14.6v.
It is possible for the PCM to read an incorrect voltage or temperature for things to go a bit odd. Live data helps when checking for this.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 14 May 2012
Location: Ellikom
Posts: 232
15V never seen, 14.6V is about the max I've seen and only for seconds.
After cranking it goes to 14.4V, but not long: 20secs after a sleeping night and just 2secs after a hot start, then back to 14.0V
Outside temperatures during test were between 5°C and 20°C (done multiple test over a longer period).
Most test were done with IIDTool, just the display that appears in dash when you plug in the IIDTool. First checked the accuracy of the IIDTool with a DMM directly on the battery and this seemed quite ok, so didn't use the DMM afterwards.
@Robby, what live data do you want me to check?2017-...: Disco II Td5 auto, 1999, BAS remap, HD TC and auto box Ashcroft, Allisport IC, ACE, 2" lift only coils, BF goodrich KM2 265/70R17, FF front and rear bumper, TF steering guard and tree sliders, nanocom.
2013-2017: Disco 3 TDV6 HSE aut. of 2008, Britpart treesliders, IIDTool, RLD sump guard, BFG KM2 265/70R17, adj. rods, BAS remap + EGRs blanked, silicon IC hoses.
2010-2013: Disco II Td5 of 2000, ACE, front Bearmach HD coils, rear SLS, GG AT2
28th Jul 2015 9:02 am
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
The IID does not have a volt meter so it uses the reading calculated by the PCM as the default, but other ECU voltages can be accessed by the tool. There would normally be an offset between the PCM voltage and the voltage at the terminals due to voltage drop, but at typical voltages this offset should be reasonably consistent.
For alternator voltage output it is best to check after 10 mins or so of driving. You should not see 15v at current temps unless there is an issue somewhere, but your voltages are a little lower than I would expect, but perhaps your battery is holding a very good state of charge.
Try measuring the battery voltage at the battery in the morning pre-start. Note that the vehicle wakes up and draws lots of current when you unlock it so best to wait a few minutes before taking the reading.
At the moment I would not be unduly worried, so hopefully the data collected will be reassuring.
Your vehicle CCF would have been set to use the voltages in the left column for wet batteries when under direct PCM control:
Click image to enlarge
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 14 May 2012
Location: Ellikom
Posts: 232
Did some more measurements, nothing spectacular:
1. After 10 minutes driving voltage of IIDTool on display: 14.0V-14.1V. Outside temp 21°C.
2. Battery voltage measured with DMM this morning, 10 minutes after opening the bonnet: 12.73V. Car was in underground garage all night, 18°C.
You wrote "voltages of other ECU's can be read with the tool". How do I do that?
Version 3.0 of the IIDTool has these extra info with the DTC codes. For the status bits between brackets there is an explanation in the manual, but is there also a description of the byte/number before the status bits? I have error: 'cell phone' U3003 17 (AF) (sometimes (EC)), couldn't find the meaning of the "17".2017-...: Disco II Td5 auto, 1999, BAS remap, HD TC and auto box Ashcroft, Allisport IC, ACE, 2" lift only coils, BF goodrich KM2 265/70R17, FF front and rear bumper, TF steering guard and tree sliders, nanocom.
2013-2017: Disco 3 TDV6 HSE aut. of 2008, Britpart treesliders, IIDTool, RLD sump guard, BFG KM2 265/70R17, adj. rods, BAS remap + EGRs blanked, silicon IC hoses.
2010-2013: Disco II Td5 of 2000, ACE, front Bearmach HD coils, rear SLS, GG AT2
31st Jul 2015 7:28 am
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
The voltage suggests a 100% state of charge (although voltage is not the best test for SoC, but it is useful). If correct then the alternator will have to do very little.
You can manually look for the live data per ECU but the easiest way is just to type voltage in the new search box.
If you were here I would look at the battery CCA and hook a scope to the vehicle to check for any AC ripple from the alternator.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 14 May 2012
Location: Ellikom
Posts: 232
I did measurements with an oscilloscope, during cranking it drops until 8V, very short.
I hooked the oscilloscope up to the battery terminals, looked ok for AC ripple. Is there a better place to do these ripple measurements?2017-...: Disco II Td5 auto, 1999, BAS remap, HD TC and auto box Ashcroft, Allisport IC, ACE, 2" lift only coils, BF goodrich KM2 265/70R17, FF front and rear bumper, TF steering guard and tree sliders, nanocom.
2013-2017: Disco 3 TDV6 HSE aut. of 2008, Britpart treesliders, IIDTool, RLD sump guard, BFG KM2 265/70R17, adj. rods, BAS remap + EGRs blanked, silicon IC hoses.
2010-2013: Disco II Td5 of 2000, ACE, front Bearmach HD coils, rear SLS, GG AT2
31st Jul 2015 8:51 am
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
I connect to the battery when I do ripple checks too.
Hmmm.
8v is a bit low for cranking with such a 'good' battery. How long did the 8v drop last (ie is it is less than 400ms then I would ignore it) but at 1Hz mine dips to around 11.5v from an 88% SoC start in similar conditions.
Crank event at a little over 4 seconds with peak amp draw of 127A and voltage drop to 11.5v for just under a second in green:
Click image to enlarge
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 14 May 2012
Location: Ellikom
Posts: 232
I did the measurements some time ago, I tried to upload a picture and the measurements in a .csv file. The forum didn't like the .csv extension, so I zipped this file.
The 8V minimum is actually 8.4V (this morning it was just an estimation I made from the graph) and it is only for 2ms, then it goes back up, have a look at the .csv file.
The AC ripple I didn't save in a measurement file, but if you like I can try to make one of this measurement too.2017-...: Disco II Td5 auto, 1999, BAS remap, HD TC and auto box Ashcroft, Allisport IC, ACE, 2" lift only coils, BF goodrich KM2 265/70R17, FF front and rear bumper, TF steering guard and tree sliders, nanocom.
2013-2017: Disco 3 TDV6 HSE aut. of 2008, Britpart treesliders, IIDTool, RLD sump guard, BFG KM2 265/70R17, adj. rods, BAS remap + EGRs blanked, silicon IC hoses.
2010-2013: Disco II Td5 of 2000, ACE, front Bearmach HD coils, rear SLS, GG AT2
31st Jul 2015 1:02 pm
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
Thanks for the CSV and I guess the file was taken when the battery was at a reasonably low state of charge, given the starting voltage. I did a quick and dirty graph of your data and was surprised to see the alternator voltage so low given the low SoC post-start:
Click image to enlarge
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 14 May 2012
Location: Ellikom
Posts: 232
Nice graph you made!
I don't remember the state of the battery, but I do remember I had to crank a few times before I could log a good measurement. Also the glow plugs were active, that takes the voltage down a little.
About the alternator voltage, I must say this measurement was done with the refurbished alternator, now I have the OEM one in the Disco.
I went back to the car this evening and read the errors again, now I realized we shouldn't be looking at the voltage during cranking, that's not when the error is logged. I checked the logged km's with the error and the logged value is 1km less than the current odometer value. I'm sure my last trip was more than 1km, so the error is not (or not only) happening during cranking.2017-...: Disco II Td5 auto, 1999, BAS remap, HD TC and auto box Ashcroft, Allisport IC, ACE, 2" lift only coils, BF goodrich KM2 265/70R17, FF front and rear bumper, TF steering guard and tree sliders, nanocom.
2013-2017: Disco 3 TDV6 HSE aut. of 2008, Britpart treesliders, IIDTool, RLD sump guard, BFG KM2 265/70R17, adj. rods, BAS remap + EGRs blanked, silicon IC hoses.
2010-2013: Disco II Td5 of 2000, ACE, front Bearmach HD coils, rear SLS, GG AT2
31st Jul 2015 9:40 pm
drivesafe
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
Hi BSM, you need to drive constantly for just over 30 minutes after you first start the motor on a given day, then take your voltage measurements.
Every start AFTER THE FISRT START, the voltage settles back from the BOOSTED voltage to the normal operating voltage after 10 minutes.
From what you have posted, I think you will find the problems are being caused by you cranking battery.
At 7 years old, while it appears to be getting fully charge, it probably has very little capacity left and it is only the usable capacity that is actually being charged.
You don’t hear of this problem much in the D3s, but it is a huge problem in L322 Range Rovers. Once the battery starts to age, all manor of unrelated error messages come up.2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
1st Aug 2015 10:01 pm
bsm
Member Since: 14 May 2012
Location: Ellikom
Posts: 232
I know that battery's lose power after some years. That's why I replaced mine, there were no other symtoms of the battery being weak, only some random (?) errors. I have a new battery now, but still having errors. Also the measurements were done with the new battery.2017-...: Disco II Td5 auto, 1999, BAS remap, HD TC and auto box Ashcroft, Allisport IC, ACE, 2" lift only coils, BF goodrich KM2 265/70R17, FF front and rear bumper, TF steering guard and tree sliders, nanocom.
2013-2017: Disco 3 TDV6 HSE aut. of 2008, Britpart treesliders, IIDTool, RLD sump guard, BFG KM2 265/70R17, adj. rods, BAS remap + EGRs blanked, silicon IC hoses.
2010-2013: Disco II Td5 of 2000, ACE, front Bearmach HD coils, rear SLS, GG AT2
1st Aug 2015 10:10 pm
drivesafe
Member Since: 23 Feb 2006
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Posts: 867
Hi again bam, have you tried a forced reset?2008 TDV8 RR Lux + 2009 D4 2.7
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