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redjelly5000
Member Since: 18 Jul 2008
Location: Rugby
Posts: 473
  
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I have the removable towbar, and I find the ball height too low for my Ifor Williams twin axel trailer, to the point that on level ground, the trailer is low at the front and the rear axel is often off the floor. This also means that the rear wheels on the trailer often lock up when braking as the weight is not distributed evenly over both axels.
I never had a problem with this before I got the D3, as the witter bar on my D2 was the perfect height for this trailer. I emailed Ifor Williams to see if they had encountered this with any other customers, and they said they had, infact they'd had customers who had to stand on the nose of the trailer to get it down onto the tow ball of the D3, which I must admit I have had to do sometimes, depending on how level the ground is. IW said to contact LR customer services about it, but I know they won't give a hoot.
Have any of you peeps had such an issue, and has anyone discovered a solution without fitting a fixed adjustable height bar? Being able to put the towbar in the boot really makes a difference to the departure angle. D3 TDV6 HSE 2008 Buckingham Blue (current)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2009 Zermatt Silver (previous)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2005 Maya Gold (previous)
D2 TD5 ES 1999 (previous)
Defender TD5 swb hard top 2005 (previous)
Defender 300tdi swb hard top 1994 (previous)
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 10th Sep 2008 12:43 am |
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wiggs
Member Since: 03 Sep 2006
Location: Manchester
Posts: 14368
  
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Set the remote for raising / lowering the suspension...back your d3 under the trailer ..get out and use the remote to lift the car to reach the trailer ...once connected your disco should level out  G4 Gone ...but not forgotten
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| 10th Sep 2008 12:53 am |
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zebadee
Member Since: 15 Feb 2006
Location: The Magic Roundabout
Posts: 1392
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I have an Indespension twin axel trailer & had exactly the same issue.
It runs perfectly level on our Td5 & my old ’95 300Tdi, but attached to the removable tow bar on the D3 it ran too low, with the rear wheels of the trailer off the ground.
There’s quite the difference in ball height between the older Disco’s & that of the removable tow bar on a D3. The only way I could solve the issue & use my trailer on the D3, was to fit the adjustable height tow bar & set the ball height fairly high to suit the trailer.
Edited to add……
Having looked at the accessories brochure, the quick release tow bar is listed as having a ball height off the ground of 400mm. The multi height tow bar gives ball heights in a range form 350mm to 500mm.
I also took a quick measurement on the Td5 out back & the ball height is roughly 445 off the ground. So in my case at least that 45mm made all the difference for having my trailer run level or with a significant nose down attitude.
FYI the part number for the multi height tow bar is VUB501430
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| 10th Sep 2008 9:02 am |
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Snowy
Member Since: 06 Jul 2007
Location: At the end of my tether
Posts: 3079
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I'm thinking about getting one of these from APB Trading to replace the removable tow ball. I think they're about £180 excluding the Ball & Pin, that's extra.....
http://www.apbtrading.co.uk/index.php?opti...;Itemid=53
Edit: they're not EU approved by the way, in case that makes a difference to you. The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us yet.
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| 10th Sep 2008 9:31 am |
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caverD3
Member Since: 03 Jul 2006
Location: Oberon, NSW
Posts: 6922
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That's the BRS one from SA. If sold by a UK retailer one would think it would have to be Legal?  “There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely gamesâ€
Ernest Hemmingway
D4 3.0 Active Diff, Adaptive Lights, High Beam Assist, Surround Cameras, Privacy Glass.
D3 2.7:Adaptive Headlights,Electronic Rear Diff,ARB Bar,Blaupunkt Speakers,JVC Powered Subwoofer,Removable Snorkel,Mitch Hitch,Pioneer After Market Head Unit,Steering Wheel Control Adaptor,Remote Adjustable Supension Rod System, Taxside Dual Battery System.
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| 10th Sep 2008 10:21 am |
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Snowy
Member Since: 06 Jul 2007
Location: At the end of my tether
Posts: 3079
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Not necessarily, if sold as a "Recovery Hitch" and not a tow bar.  The surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us yet.
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| 10th Sep 2008 10:25 am |
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simonsi
Member Since: 14 Oct 2007
Location: Auckland
Posts: 1264
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There are a couple of references to EC Directive 94/20/EC stating that towball heights must be between 350mm and 420mm off the ground for cars and between 380mm and 450mm off the ground for trailers/caravans. Seems barmy that they are different! So to have the LR removable at 400mm and the trailer at 450mm seems within specs but crazy....
The multi-height LR bar also uses the same removable hitch mechanism but has the two lateral bars that are bolted to the chassis, not sure what issues would arise if using just the removable bit of the multi-height bar without the side bars but that would let you have the right towball height and be able to have the better departure angle on demand....but I'm sure it wouldn't be type approved so illegal on-road. Cheers
Simon
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| 10th Sep 2008 11:08 am |
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ronald.soak
Member Since: 29 Apr 2008
Location: London
Posts: 516
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Having a twin axle Ifor Williams trailer myself, I was concerned that there might be an issue with the removable hitch.
Ifor Williams advised that the optimum height for the tow ball was 400mm, a perfect match. and no problems have been experienced.
It sounds like your vehicle is at access height when you are trying to couple up.
You could check with Ifor Williams, regarding you trailer but Wiggs's advice sounds the way to go.
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| 10th Sep 2008 11:38 am |
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alanwxr
Member Since: 19 Nov 2006
Location: West Yorkshire
Posts: 306
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I spoke to Ifor Williams when I recently bought a 506 horse trailer.
The said the ideal height was 400 to 450mm for that trailer.
As the Disco 3 removable towbar is 400mm they said that there would be no problems 
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| 10th Sep 2008 1:00 pm |
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Dexter
Member Since: 21 Sep 2007
Location: Aberdeenshire
Posts: 1391
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My twin axle tintent sits spot on with the removable towbar, although at 26 feet it is longer and any variation would be less noticeable. just a thought, but would different wheel / tyre combinations affect the height of the chassis (car or trailer) from the ground ?
Dex
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| 10th Sep 2008 1:15 pm |
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redjelly5000
Member Since: 18 Jul 2008
Location: Rugby
Posts: 473
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Thanks for all the advice and suggestions folks.
Wiggs, it's a nice idea, but the car would still go back to normal height once the trailer is connected. I could easily just raise the suspension from inside to aid hitching up, but then when you reach road speed, it would go back down again, and then you are back to having your rear wheels off the ground again.
I can see the fixed tow bar would solve the problem, and Witter do one now as well, but that rather defeats the object of a removable one. When I contacted Ifor Williams, they told me my trailer should be towed at approx 450mm, so that shows why the removable one is too lw at 400mm. I had a Dixon & Bate slider on my TD5 Defender, so that never caused a problem, and the TD5 Disco with the Witter, was perfect at 450mm too, so it's just this removable bar that has started a problem. Clearly it's not just me and my trailer that has the problem, in fact even Ifor Williams said they had a lot of the same enquiries.
I'm definately not in access mode Ronald, in fact as mentioned before, off road height only just gives about the right height for this trailer. Ifor Williams specifically asked e what trailer I have, because the heights vary depending on trailer wheel and tyre size, and from trailer to trailer, so your trailer may be different from mine, hence why you are not having any issues.
Dexter, I know that different wheel and tyre combinations can make a difference on the trailer, and that is what Ifor Williams told me, it depended upon what type my trailer was and what wheel/tyre combo it had, but on the car, all rolling radius', and therefore the wheel height and diameters should be the same regardless of what tyres and wheels you have on, otherwise the speedo and odometer etc would be incorrect. In theory, as you increase the wheel sixe on your car, you also decrease the profile.
It looks like there is no real solution to this problem without changing for a fixed bar. It's not like the problem is the 'end of the world' (very topical for today), but I guess it does mean that when my 3.5t trailer is fully loaded the weight is not evenly distributed over both axels, and as I said before, the rears lock up easily when empty, so I guess I'll go through tyres quicker on that axel. D3 TDV6 HSE 2008 Buckingham Blue (current)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2009 Zermatt Silver (previous)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2005 Maya Gold (previous)
D2 TD5 ES 1999 (previous)
Defender TD5 swb hard top 2005 (previous)
Defender 300tdi swb hard top 1994 (previous)
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| 10th Sep 2008 2:30 pm |
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simonsi
Member Since: 14 Oct 2007
Location: Auckland
Posts: 1264
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If you level the trailer how high is the hitch coupling, from your description, and the fact that the axles are much closer together than the hitch is to the front trailer axle, if it can lift the rear trailer wheels off the ground it sounds much more than a 50mm height issue at the towball. To put it the other way, if you dip the hitch 50mm from when the trailer is level I'd only expect maybe 10-15mm movement upwards on the rear axle, which I wouldn't have thought should cause it to come off level ground????
Sometimes it is possible to alter the trailer drawbar and alter its height??
I agree you won't get much joy out of LRCC as EC rules seem to mandate the height is where it is, they would certainly recommend the fixed multi-height bar in any case, its a real shame they don't do a removable version of it - I assume they may have planned to but it may have had some stability issues at certain ball heights that needed the lateral bars to deal with, making it fixed.
Oh and the other possibility is a roadside check may show up you are trailing illegally as the front axle could be overloaded as well as potential stability issues....  Cheers
Simon
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| 10th Sep 2008 3:16 pm |
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zebadee
Member Since: 15 Feb 2006
Location: The Magic Roundabout
Posts: 1392
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simonsi wrote:................ if it can lift the rear trailer wheels off the ground it sounds much more than a 50mm height issue at the towball. To put it the other way, if you dip the hitch 50mm from when the trailer is level I'd only expect maybe 10-15mm movement upwards on the rear axle, which I wouldn't have thought should cause it to come off level ground????
It’s hard to imagine that 50mm causing such a nose down / rear wheels up issue on the trailer & only that I saw it myself the first time I hooked up to the D3 I wouldn’t have believed it.
But when I had the quick release tow bar on there was no way I could have towed my trailer safely & properly. So I went for the adjustable tow bar, set the ball at the mid height position & voila ….. all cool.
When I chopped in the D3 a few years ago for the RRS, I again tried the removable tow hook, as I wanted a cleaner look on the car when not towing.
But yes….. you guessed it, same issue, so on went the adjustable bar again.
Thing is though, I’ve seen all sorts of trailers being towed behind Sports & Discos on the quick release hook with no apparent issue.
So I guess it’s really down to a specific trailer.
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| 10th Sep 2008 6:54 pm |
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redjelly5000
Member Since: 18 Jul 2008
Location: Rugby
Posts: 473
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On level ground Simon, the wheels aren't completely off the ground, but they are barely on. You can turn the wheels easily when you push them with your foot. IWT said that my trailer should be on a 450mm tow ball, and that must be about right as the gap is about 50mm when I offer up the trailer without the jockey down so the trailer is sitting level. I don't think there would be any stability issues when the trailer is empty, as there's not much load to compete against the D3's weight, but when fully loaded, IWT suggested that it would sit better anyway as the suspension on the trailer would lower to fall more in line with my tow ball. They are right, as when I had it fully loaded with stone from the quarry today, (3.5t in all) it looked so much better, and with all that weight, the wheels were absolutely on the ground!
You can hear the tyres skidding when you brake when it is empty, and it did that before sometimes when empty if you had to brake hard, but now it does it almost every time, as one tyre has hardly any weight on it. It may be that I am being over pedantic about this matter, I know s many people who would never check the height of their tow ball, or even care if the wheels lifted off now and then.
Thanks for the link Andy. It really does seem like the only option is for a fixed bar. Such a shame really. Why can't they have a standard height for all tow balls, so that trailer mfr's make their trailers to the same std height. Why is a big firm like IWT making so many different trailers all to differing heights? It just makes life difficult for people like us. D3 TDV6 HSE 2008 Buckingham Blue (current)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2009 Zermatt Silver (previous)
D3 TDV6 HSE 2005 Maya Gold (previous)
D2 TD5 ES 1999 (previous)
Defender TD5 swb hard top 2005 (previous)
Defender 300tdi swb hard top 1994 (previous)
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| 10th Sep 2008 8:09 pm |
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