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al cope
Member Since: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 4807
  
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Brian - see the post about being too heavy.
Al TDV6 XS Auto - Lugano Teal with Almond Leather, 20" Stormers, Shiny Tailpipes, DVD/TV, BAS Electrickery - and obligatory D3 sticker
Old - TDV6 S - Tonga with Ebony, 20" Stormers, satnav & DVD
If you think you are too small to make a difference - you've never shared a bedroom with a mosquito
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 Wed Feb 03 2010 10:05am |
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Nepotism
Member Since: 17 Feb 2009
Location: None
Posts: 82
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Okay, an interesting item and revisted. I PM'd Al and I respect what he says, but I've done a little research and found the following. It is an opinion, thats all.
I've had a look at the stats for a manual D4, base kerb mass is 2476kg. The D3 is 2494. The distrubution of the weight on the axles for the D4 is front, 1450kg and rear, 1840kg. The D3 front, 1296kg and rear 1412kg.
Okay, the 111 load rating is 1090kg x 4 = 4360kgs. the 109 load rating is 1030kgs x 4 = 4120kgs. So yes there is a difference, albeit slight
Take the mass weight of a D3, add 20% for safety and it's 2992kg. Divide by 4 = 748kgs. It therefore stands to reason that the load rating, even allowing 20% for safety is exceeding the actual load by 282kgs.
I accept what you say in relation to what LR recommend and potential problems with the insurance, but where does it actually say this and could you show me the link me to this please.
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| Sun Mar 14 2010 11:50am |
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hensoni
Member Since: 01 Oct 2007
Location: Sleepy Somerset
Posts: 519
 
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A couple of points Nepotism:
1) kerb weight is largely immaterial. The safety reserve factors for the design (which, incidentally will be much higher than 20%) will be based on the max weight of 3.2t give or take (and then a 'monkey load' is probably applied after that)
2) LI ratings are based on the max pressure for the tyre - 50psi on my Scorps. You don't run at max press, even at max all up weight so you can't use the whole LI in your calcs
3) Insurance is based on the Type Certificate for the vehicle. The tyres listed on the individual vehicle's doorplate are those 'approved' and homologated for the vehicle. Use anything other than the sizes specified and you are operating outside the type certificate and your insurance is automatically void. You could probably get your vehicle SVA'd and re-plated, but informing the insurance company is cheaper. For a link, try starting with SMMT and SAE and go from there
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| Sun Mar 14 2010 12:59pm |
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Nepotism
Member Since: 17 Feb 2009
Location: None
Posts: 82
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Thanks, I understand what you say and it makes sense.
If what you say is right, the kerb weight as determined by LR and taking other considerations into account is basically an unknown, but the weights mentioned in their book must be a factor, it's just we don;t know how much of an allowance they make for other things.
I see the reasoning behind the LI ratings at max.
The type approval, could be argued. The type approval I am thinking of relates to Construction asnd Use and Lighting Regulations as laid down by law, rather than the plate inside the door, giving you tyres pressures for various combinations. There is nothing in the service book that related to tyres and type approvals. There is a warning about mixing tyres, but a space in the book for 'modifications' of tyres. The advice LR give, is to contact your dealer. Although the insurance company proposition may well be the best.
That said, there is an arguement that anything non standard, be it wiper blades, even replacement tyres, if not exactly the same as LR could be deemed inferior and have an effect on the insurance.
When it comes down to it, I am quite sure that the wheels are fit for purpose, it's the insurance thing that really determines if the tyres are right for the car and that might be the way to go.
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| Sun Mar 14 2010 1:43pm |
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al cope
Member Since: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 4807
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also, in reply to your PM,
whilst all your weight calcs may be vaild, they are irrevelant, as 111 is the minimum tyre spec for a UK D3. It gives this in the manual, and on the tyre sticker on the inside of the D3 drivers door.
As a sting in the tail, on an Oz spec D3, 109 is the minumum, but we arent in Oz 
at the end of the day, its your call, but dont forgot, ignorance isnt a defence in the eyes of the law
Al TDV6 XS Auto - Lugano Teal with Almond Leather, 20" Stormers, Shiny Tailpipes, DVD/TV, BAS Electrickery - and obligatory D3 sticker
Old - TDV6 S - Tonga with Ebony, 20" Stormers, satnav & DVD
If you think you are too small to make a difference - you've never shared a bedroom with a mosquito
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| Sun Mar 14 2010 2:30pm |
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hensoni
Member Since: 01 Oct 2007
Location: Sleepy Somerset
Posts: 519
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Quote:ignorance isn't a defence in the eyes of the law
Especially when you have sought advice and that advice has been given and recorded and effectively published in an open forum (I'll have to scrutinise Martin's Ts & Cs for that last bit - IICBA)
Last edited by hensoni on Sun Mar 14 2010 3:10pm. Edited 1 time in total
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| Sun Mar 14 2010 2:43pm |
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hensoni
Member Since: 01 Oct 2007
Location: Sleepy Somerset
Posts: 519
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Ah, here we go. Found it at last. This is a very small part of what makes your vehicle legal to drive in the EU:
Quote:6.6. Tyres and wheels
6.6.1. Tyre/wheel combination(s) (for tyres indicate size designation, minimum load-capacity index, minimum
speed category symbol; for tyres of category Z intended to be fitted on vehicles whose maximum speed
exceeds 300 km/h equivalent information shall be provided; for wheels indicate rim size(s) and off-set(s))
.
If it ain't on the list, it ain't covered.
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| Sun Mar 14 2010 3:07pm |
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al cope
Member Since: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 4807
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dont take this the wrong way fellas, as I'm the last one who should be trying to preach. I've got 20's on mine, which were never spec'd for the D3 by LR, but I've always tried, even when making a change, to make sure that the change has at least met, or exceeded the minimum spec, that way you leave yourself less open should anything untoward arises. And in the case of my wheels, informed and paid extra on my insurance for them.
Al TDV6 XS Auto - Lugano Teal with Almond Leather, 20" Stormers, Shiny Tailpipes, DVD/TV, BAS Electrickery - and obligatory D3 sticker
Old - TDV6 S - Tonga with Ebony, 20" Stormers, satnav & DVD
If you think you are too small to make a difference - you've never shared a bedroom with a mosquito
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| Sun Mar 14 2010 3:13pm |
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hensoni
Member Since: 01 Oct 2007
Location: Sleepy Somerset
Posts: 519
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Nor me. Indeed, on the subjects of tyres and wheels, I've got virtually no specific knowledge (and certainly nothing that cannot be found in the public domain courtesy of Auntie Google) . On the subject of Product Qualification and Certification and the substantiation evidence that a 'certified' product needs - well, on that subject I do have some knowledge.
The problem with most, if not all CE regulations is that they are designed for the lowest common denominator of user - those that would never read the manual  and would ignore any operational limitations. Accordingly, the certification authorities don't allow any limitations of a product's use (in a domestic environment).
LR may well have tested 20 and 22 in rims and the operational limitations as a result of those tests may have been shown to be minimal (such as, minor rubbing on full lock). The law does not allow a operational limitation such as "do not use full lock when driving on (sexy) 22in rims" in the user manual so they aren't on the list. I would love to get hold of the supporting substantiation evidence, but LR quite rightly keep that valuable info close to their corporate chest
Individuals are entitled to conduct their own further evaluation activities and get them accredited via the SVA process and I would imagine that organisations such as the AA, ambulance authorities and the Highways Agency regularly do this to enhance their product.
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| Sun Mar 14 2010 3:38pm |
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Nepotism
Member Since: 17 Feb 2009
Location: None
Posts: 82
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Yes, I agree, strictly speaking and playing devils advocate, 20" rims arn't mentioned on the door sticker, so even if they meet or exceed 111 weights, they are still an illegal combination, insured or not as the insurance company could well argue it is a risk you take, despite telling them or insure you 3rd party only if there is an accident and they determine the wheels were at fault, simply because they shouldn't be on the car? Even if I changed the tyres to 275x45x20 at 111 load, then because it's a 20" rim I am still up the creek theoretically speaking.
Insurance companies love to wriggle!
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| Mon Mar 15 2010 12:54am |
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al cope
Member Since: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 4807
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they do, but as you've informed them, and they've agreed to take the risk onto their books, you've paid you cash, you should be OK, otherwise they shouldnt have taken on the "extra risk" business.
Al TDV6 XS Auto - Lugano Teal with Almond Leather, 20" Stormers, Shiny Tailpipes, DVD/TV, BAS Electrickery - and obligatory D3 sticker
Old - TDV6 S - Tonga with Ebony, 20" Stormers, satnav & DVD
If you think you are too small to make a difference - you've never shared a bedroom with a mosquito
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| Mon Mar 15 2010 8:52am |
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1nten5e
Member Since: 03 Feb 2010
Location: LANCS
Posts: 71
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Bit off topic Al, but can you tell me what pressures you're running on the 20"s, I have the same set-up
cheers
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| Mon Mar 15 2010 11:00am |
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al cope
Member Since: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 4807
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36 front and 40 rear when solo, nudge the rears up to 42 when towing.
Al TDV6 XS Auto - Lugano Teal with Almond Leather, 20" Stormers, Shiny Tailpipes, DVD/TV, BAS Electrickery - and obligatory D3 sticker
Old - TDV6 S - Tonga with Ebony, 20" Stormers, satnav & DVD
If you think you are too small to make a difference - you've never shared a bedroom with a mosquito
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| Mon Mar 15 2010 1:35pm |
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Nepotism
Member Since: 17 Feb 2009
Location: None
Posts: 82
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Just to let you know, I checked the wheels out with Land Rover and they say the alloy/tyre combination are okay and listed as an accessory for Discovery 3's late 2009 as well as Discovery 4's, although I've never seen it in honesty.
I pointed out the weight difference 109/111 and although acknowledged, that doesn't seem to be a factor with the vehicle/tyre combination.
I also phoned up the insurance company and they are quite happy with the alloys/tyres, again after pointing out the potential problems as described here on the site. They got onto their underwriter and they will not charge me any more premium and send me an updated schedule covering the wheels if I proceed.
As Al says, they will take the risk!
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| Tue Mar 16 2010 8:08pm |
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al cope
Member Since: 08 Nov 2005
Location: Oldbury, WM
Posts: 4807
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job's a good un then
Al TDV6 XS Auto - Lugano Teal with Almond Leather, 20" Stormers, Shiny Tailpipes, DVD/TV, BAS Electrickery - and obligatory D3 sticker
Old - TDV6 S - Tonga with Ebony, 20" Stormers, satnav & DVD
If you think you are too small to make a difference - you've never shared a bedroom with a mosquito
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| Tue Mar 16 2010 9:20pm |
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