Member Since: 06 Mar 2017
Location: Lost
Posts: 4658
Yeah it's got to be a keeper before taking on that extent and cost of rebuild.
Is the chassis rebuilt yet?yµ (idµ - eAµ) ψ=mψ
15th Jun 2021 1:04 am
Breg90
Member Since: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Falkirk
Posts: 348
Chassis - that's a drive ornament ATM!!Series one 1949 - in bits, chassis is strapped to the ceiling in my garage (beside the canoe)
LR 90 - In bits
Disco 3 - currently in bits
15th Jun 2021 1:05 am
PROFSR G
Member Since: 06 Mar 2017
Location: Lost
Posts: 4658
Oh well never mind, it'll get there eventually.
Your health comes first, hope you're well again soon.yµ (idµ - eAµ) ψ=mψ
15th Jun 2021 1:19 am
Gareth Site Moderator
Member Since: 07 Dec 2004
Location: Bramhall
Posts: 26702
Good stuff. It’s only nuts and bolts really. 👍😉
15th Jun 2021 7:25 am
Breg90
Member Since: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Falkirk
Posts: 348
Big end bearings - this is typical of what I found:
From reading others posts this is typical of big end bearing wear. I measured up the shell thickness to assess the wear like so:
On hindsight a touch of OCD on the go.....
But loss of this section adds 13% to the bearing clearance at each big end. Add in main bearing wear induced clearance increase and the oil pressure must be lower. To me this is an exponentially worsening issue.
Other finds on strip down:
EGR pipe clips - if you don't have one just jubilee clip the :
Worst part of this is from talking to the previous owner he did no maintenance himself and I have the receipt for the EGR change from a garage. So a 'professional' did this. Prob the same dude who sheared a front prop bolt and 'glued' it back in the flange with black sealant.
Oil cooler - I didn't think I had a coolant leak - did not notice the coolant level dropping. However this suggests other wise:
And finally the state of the parts pile. It has over flowed to the shed as well...
Series one 1949 - in bits, chassis is strapped to the ceiling in my garage (beside the canoe)
LR 90 - In bits
Disco 3 - currently in bits
18th Jun 2021 12:16 am
PROFSR G
Member Since: 06 Mar 2017
Location: Lost
Posts: 4658
Looks as if the parts tab is not finished just yet. yµ (idµ - eAµ) ψ=mψ
18th Jun 2021 1:04 am
G3Z
Member Since: 16 Dec 2018
Location: South Wales
Posts: 537
Seeing that parts pile is what puts me off modern/complicated 4x4’s Defender 110 2.4 TDCi Utility Station Wagon.
2007 Disco 3 GS TDV6 Manual
200,000+ mile club 😎
18th Jun 2021 8:24 am
Breg90
Member Since: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Falkirk
Posts: 348
G3Z,
Not too sure it’s any more complicated than a modern car with the exception if4 wheel drive. Once you strip it, each system is less complex than you think.
Personally think that we can get sucked into thinking things are more complex than they are by a multitude of error codes. Add to that we (collectively) tend to trust the code too much - in fact the code is a symptom and the root cause could be else where. This isn’t helped by limited info being available. My recommendation is to subscribe to LR topic for a week and work late in the office so you can down load and print the lr manual when no one is looking. It’s a big pile of paper though!!
AdrianSeries one 1949 - in bits, chassis is strapped to the ceiling in my garage (beside the canoe)
LR 90 - In bits
Disco 3 - currently in bits
18th Jun 2021 4:30 pm
PROFSR G
Member Since: 06 Mar 2017
Location: Lost
Posts: 4658
Well you're right the wear is typical judging by my own experiences, as is poor oil pressure particularly on post 100k engines. So much so I now insist on pump replacement for all TDV6 engines regardless of whether they are 2.7lt or 3.0lt at the first belt change.
If the customer does not agree I will refuse the work.
As for your oil cooler it's a complete unit I'm afraid at around £230.00 + vat. There is a Nissens alternative for I think less than £100 + vat but I've never fitted one. I have used their AC condensers though with never any issue.
The oil cooler is a more critical part, so it's genuine for me always without exception. yµ (idµ - eAµ) ψ=mψ
18th Jun 2021 5:01 pm
Breg90
Member Since: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Falkirk
Posts: 348
ProfsrG,
I already had the updated pump, must have been fitted at the belt change in 2015 before I got it.
Hence why I am messing about trying to get fords latest bearings.
AdrianSeries one 1949 - in bits, chassis is strapped to the ceiling in my garage (beside the canoe)
LR 90 - In bits
Disco 3 - currently in bits
18th Jun 2021 5:51 pm
PROFSR G
Member Since: 06 Mar 2017
Location: Lost
Posts: 4658
Perhaps the wear is mostly pre 2015?, seems a lot considering there's a new pump in there. I wonder if irregular oil changes might be playing a part. Not everybody is as pedantic about oil change intervals as many of us are on here!
Good luck with chasing the bearings, if you find them we'd all like to know who the supplier is.
Fit new bolts. yµ (idµ - eAµ) ψ=mψ
18th Jun 2021 5:59 pm
Breg90
Member Since: 04 Feb 2017
Location: Falkirk
Posts: 348
Profsr G,
Bolts:
Sourced new big end cap bolts and main cap side bolts from Ford USA as fitted to the 3.0 Lion engine in the Ford F150. Just search for parts for a Ford F150 3.0 Lariat 2020 model. I used TASCA parts as they do international shipping.
Main cap side bolts - 4R8Z-6345-A - $2.46 each, so about £1.80 to £1.90 depending on exchange rate
Big end cap bolts - 4S7Z-6214-A - $2.25 each, about £1.60 each.
Main bearing bolts are listed, but are apparently out of stock in the USA. I gave up on these on this order.
Shipping added 35% to the above costs on average.
I have the bolts and they fit/match. They come in nice Ford bags. Gives more confidence than a sh*tpart blue box:
Bearings - main and big end:
I looked at the bearing clearance tolerances based on data on the available outback engineering data
& in LR Topix's that has a bearing fit chart. Key thoughts:
Ford had multiple bearing sizes for a reason - in my view to optimize the bearing clearance to maintain adequate bearing pressure, See later. After market bearings are only available in one size. To me this means that the aftermarket bearings are a gamble on the tolerances in your engine matching the 'one size fits all' tolerance on the aftermarket bearing. Ford did not specify multiple bearings that should be selected to fit the crank/block as needed for fun/to increase costs - it must be required. Based on this I ruled out after market bearings.
The outback engineering engine bearing size charts & the LR Topix bearing charts list bearing sizes as numbers. They are sold as colours (red/blue/yellow). I have not been able to find a cross reference between the two. Eventually found a yellow strip (remains of) on the big end upper bearings, like so (faintly observable in the middle of the bearing shell edge) - this was not visible on any other shells:
Island 4x4 will allegedly obtain 'genuine' bearings if you can quote the bearing colours. See earlier re no cross reference between numbers and bloody colours...... Plus the bearing sizing chart in the outback engineering bearing chart and the LR Topix bearing chart give nominal sizes that don't match the bearing sizes in a 2.7 Lion V6. They seem more 'indicative' of the process rather than specific to the engine. Spent a quite a time looking at codes on the bearings and the block to try and 'decode' the bearing size charts. See my post below for some info on that:
The came to the conclusion that if I ordered bearings to suits a 2.7 (assuming I could decode the sizes) from Island 4x4 I'd likely get the same 'green' coated bearings that wear.
Started to think about the fact that the ford F150 3.0 Lion V6 has uprated bearings of some sort. They did that for a reason. So if they would fit they would be the daddy of bearings.
If I was a design engineer for an engine that was in production and I was asked to increase the bearing cpacity would I:
a/. Fit larger diameter (and hence change the manufacturing process for the block and crank) bearings
b/. If possible, would I fit high capacity bearings to the existing block/crank
The higher capacity bearings are the cheaper upgrade.
So I googled the Ford F150 3.0 Lion engine. A couple of useful video's:
And another video I now can't find that that shows the engine on a stand - crank end is identical etc.
I concluded the core block/crank are likely the same (but have the bigger throw/stroke to give a 3.0 capacity.
So I stalked some F150 diesel forums and found a guy that gave me bearing sizes and clearances from the Ford F150 manual. I have tabled these compared to the 2.7 Lion below:
Click image to enlarge
CONCLUSION - The main and big end journal sizes on a 2.7, 3.0 (european version) & 3.0 (Ford F150 version) are all the same size.
Based on the above I have ordered a sample big end and main bearing (non thrust) in the 'yellow' size. This worked out as:
Big end bearing (upper and lower) - $26 , so £17/£18 per bearing + 35% shipping costs
Main bearing (non thrust - upper and lower shell) - $36, so £27 - £29 per bearing + 35% for shipping
These came in the post:
Nice Bearings in Ford boxes. Made in Japan by Federal Mogul (OEM for the genuine bearings):
Yellow appears to be a bearing size '2' on the mains. On the big ends the lower is a size 'B' for a yellow and on the upper a size '2' for a yellow.
Comparing main bearings against the old ones looked like this:
From left to right - 2.7 main brg lower / 3.0 F150 main brg lower / 2.7 main brg upper / 3.0 main brg upper. I think the bronze colour is a higher capacity bearing coating (the goal of the whole exercise)
Visually they are the same size (angle of the picture makes the new shell on the left look bigger), but the main bearing lower shell has an anti rotation tab. Plan A is to use a dremel to relive the main bearing caps to accommodate this.
So on the basis of the above I have ordered a main and big end brg set in the red and blue sizes. Plan A is to start with the thinnest shells in each position, determine the 'colour' shell needed for each location to give me the optimum bearing clearance, then place a final order to suit.
It's a good job I'm not in a rush....
AdrianSeries one 1949 - in bits, chassis is strapped to the ceiling in my garage (beside the canoe)
LR 90 - In bits
Disco 3 - currently in bits
Last edited by Breg90 on 19th Jun 2021 1:34 pm. Edited 1 time in total
Impressive... both the attention to detail and the write-up.
.
Dean
====================================
2011 D4 XS - OBD port protection, RLD spare wheel protector, All LED interiors lights, Timed Climate enabled, iiD tool paired.
2011 D4 Landmark - Stolen from same dealer before I paid for it
2011 D4 GS - Stolen whilst at dealer ... All LED interiors lights, DRLs, Spare Wheel protector.
1996 300Tdi - Eaten by tin worms
19th Jun 2021 7:17 am
Farmer Chalk
Member Since: 07 Mar 2013
Location: Independent Republic of Kentishshire.
Posts: 4156
Impressive is an understatement…the whole thread has made me mildly moist!
You sir are a genius!
19th Jun 2021 7:42 am
Gareth Site Moderator
Member Since: 07 Dec 2004
Location: Bramhall
Posts: 26702
All this because you had a rusty boot floor …..
Brilliant forensic analysis, and reverse engineering.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Oh well never mind, it'll get there eventually.
:
... All LED interiors lights, DRLs, Spare Wheel protector.
