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GJS
Member Since: 21 Mar 2006
Location: Surrey, UK
Posts: 16
  
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Last night on the news Mr Blair was seen driving away from a meeting in a Range Rover with another following. I thought he set a fine example to us all. He just needs to change them for D3's!!
Once again its one rule for us and another for them........ TDV6 SE - Buckingham Blue with Alpaca
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 23rd Jun 2006 9:24 am |
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Slimer
Site Moderator
Member Since: 06 Jan 2005
Location: Last Exit to Nowhere
Posts: 16295
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Not actually that bad an idea DG  The End
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| 23rd Jun 2006 9:24 am |
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SimonH
Member Since: 29 Apr 2006
Location: North Yorkshire
Posts: 161
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An uninformed ground swell of opinion needs to be corrected early, not ignored. For once people have made up their minds on a matter it is harder to reverse them.
Where as if they have little interest either way and then see both sides of the arguement equally presented in a balanced and informed way at much the sametime, they may well just form an opinion of their own rather than that of the independent newspaper.... or any other paper for that matter
I know, I know, balanced and informed are not words to be associated with newspapers, or journos generally. Why do they all think it is their job these days to tell people what to think, what opinion to have instead of just reporting the news/facts as correctly and honestly as possible. Do they think the public are unableto form an opinion by themselves? 
I shall now sit in a darkened room and rock gently back and forth for the rest of the day..... mmmmmmmmmmmm NOW SOLD: 2006 TDV6 SE Auto Zermatt silver with Alpaca Leather
Tow Pack, PTI, Full Size Spare
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| 23rd Jun 2006 9:29 am |
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DG
Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50952
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GJS wrote:Last night on the news Mr Blair was seen driving away from a meeting in a Range Rover with another following.
His entourage usually consists of a few more vehicles than that too ....and the FFRR's are petrol .....I had a sit in the PMPT one last time he came round for tea. 8) 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
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| 23rd Jun 2006 9:38 am |
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DG
Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50952
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Slimer wrote:Not actually that bad an idea DG
I have my moments  21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
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| 23rd Jun 2006 10:02 am |
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gasdoc
Member Since: 28 Mar 2005
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 24
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| This was my reply to the independent |
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Sir
I was rather dismayed when reading your recent front page article "Enemy of the people" as I do not believe that the conclusions you have drawn from the research data are reasonable. The only fair comment should be that it would appear ,based on this small sample group, that there needs to be further education and law enforcement with regard to the wearing of seatbelts and the use of hands free devices whilst driving and that it may be necessary to target this education to those driving large 4x4 type vehicles. As anyone with a genuine interest in the subject will be aware, there is more to the ecological cost of a form of transport than the number of driven wheels. There are plenty of examples of large powerful saloon cars that emit more CO2 than the average 4x4.The fact that many LandRovers, for example, last for decades before being scrapped reduces their total environmental impact considerably. Besides this, we still should respect the individuals basic right to make their choices in transport, what to wear and where to go on holiday as long as they comply with the law. For an individual to target or harass a group purely because of the legal choices they have made is not acceptable and neither is it reasonable for the media or newspapers to whip up resentment in an inappropriate an uninformed manner just to publish an interest grabbing headline.
Dr Paul Rich
Cornwall
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| 23rd Jun 2006 12:23 pm |
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LT
Member Since: 31 Dec 2005
Location: South West
Posts: 23409
 
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"The BMJ published an American study" AAAAAAgh! Those who know nothing about cars (most enviroMENTALists) always seem to use US data, unsurprisingly the figures are woeful. I wish they would stop comparing these massive trucks to our Euro. 4X4's.
When not comparing Yank Tanks, they always quote the RR Supercharged. I see relativey few of these RR's on the road!
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| 23rd Jun 2006 12:28 pm |
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Andy4467
Member Since: 25 Nov 2005
Location: Kent - England
Posts: 203
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Is the Independant a 'newspaper?' if so surely this shows the lack of quality editorial they have. To put this on the front page must have really increased their readership!!!!!!!!!!! Along with ' the definitive guide to UK marine life' I think we can all see how non -independant they are.
I expect the advertising department are really looking forward to hitting their targets now they can't approach the Automotive sector. Some say the glass is half full. Others that it is half empty. I say 'Are you drinking that?"
Cairns Blue, Ebony Leather, SE
BMW 320d M sport
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| 23rd Jun 2006 12:43 pm |
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Gareth
Site Moderator
Member Since: 07 Dec 2004
Location: Bramhall
Posts: 26714
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Dear Sirs
I feel that as a 4x4 driver, I must protest at the article on the front page of the Independant today. The article is nothing more than an eclectic amalgamation of misguided and untrue information, spouted out by extremist members of various organisations.
Have you not driven on the roads of Britain recently? How can it be fair to target 4x4 drivers for not wearing seatbelts and using mobile phones when driving? From my own experience as a driver who does over 35000 miles per year, all over the country, is that this is simply not true. There are many examples of bad driving from all types vehicles on the road.
I see more white vans driven recklessly than 4x4's, I get tailgated by 38 ton articulated lorries on the motorway, I have to run the gauntlet of souped up hot hatches with music so loud it scares old ladies, driven at high speed at all hours of the day and night around the village where I live. I see lots of examples of so-called 'normal' cars being driven so badly that they are positively lethal weapons. I see aggressive driving, I see drivers who are so incapable that they should not be behind the wheel.
These are just a few of the 'target groups' that could be publicly critiscised by the paper, but no, the 4x4 is the public enemy number 1? I think not.
To quote The Alliance Against Urban 4x4s "Driving a 13mpg 4x4 rather than a 25mpg car for a year will waste more energy than leaving the fridge open for seven years, leaving the TV on for 32 years or leaving the light on for 34 years." Well good news! the vast majority of 4x4's in this country are diesel powered and most do over 30mpg, so no problem there then.
Again to quote the Alliance Against Urban 4x4s "Range Rovers with a 4.4-litre engine have an urban mpg of 12.2 and emit 389g carbon dioxide per kilometre. In contrast, a Ford Mondeo 2-litre fuel-injected saloon has an urban mpg of 25 and emits 190g carbon dioxide. A Smart car emits 138g carbon dioxide" Again, the vast majority of 4x4 are diesel powered, and are more economical than the Mondeo quoted. Still no problem.
I really think that targeting a particular group of drivers is very petty. There are simply no grounds to single out 4x4 on either environment or safety. For all the quotes in the article, there is a counter quote in favour of the 4x4. To say that 4x4 cause more damage in an accident? well so do large cars, vans, lorries and buses. The occupants of the 4x4 may survive a crash with a lorry, when the occupants of a smart car would stand little chance. The fact is that there has always been, and always will be large and small vehicles.
The fact that sales are up says something, more people like 4x4's. Why target them? they are popular. Its a free country!
Yours sincerely
Gareth Roberts
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| 23rd Jun 2006 12:44 pm |
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DG
Site Moderator
Member Since: 12 Dec 2005
Location: The Gaff
Posts: 50952
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Dear Sirs
Definition of Independent:
1. Not determined or influenced by someone or something else; not contingent.
2. Affiliated with or loyal to no one political party or organisation.
3. Not dependent on or affiliated with a larger or controlling entity
Perhaps you could remind your editorial staff that your newspaper is co-incidentally titled 'The Independent' and to that end they should refrain in producing the drivel I have witnessed on your front page this morning.
If you are intent on this 'Nazi' style persecution of 4x4 drivers, then at least change the name of your paper to reflect your stance. By way of assistance perhaps, I have my suggestion.....how about ... The Daily Fascist.
Then, at least, your editorial would be in context.
Yours faithfully
DG 21 year LR veteran > D2 GS 2003 > D3 S 2006 > D3 HSE 2009 > D4 HSE 2013 > D4 HSE 2015 > D5 HSE 2018 > DS HSE R-Dynamic P300e 2021
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| 23rd Jun 2006 1:27 pm |
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10forcash
Member Since: 09 Jun 2005
Location: Ubique
Posts: 16534
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Purely by coincidence, it appears that their online 'motoring' section has been closed down - either that or the firewall at work has a new tripe filter installed 
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| 23rd Jun 2006 1:33 pm |
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paul
Member Since: 12 Feb 2006
Location: Midlands
Posts: 594
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A 4.4L Range Rover surprise surprise does less miles to the gallon than a Ford Mondeo 2L. Thats a shock now. Before we had the D3 which manages 24mpg we had a BMW 530D Estate which managed 27mpg! The difference was it only carried 5. Before that we had an Audi A4 2.5tdi Quattro Sport Auto and that managed 26mpg and only carried 4 people. I drive a Ford Mondeo 2.5V6 and that manages 24mpg!
How many people die on the roads compared to how many pedestrians get killed?
Motorcyclists: 693 deaths - a 14% rise from 2002
Car users: 1,769 deaths - a 1% increase
Pedestrians: 774 killed - no significant change
Children: 171 fatalities - a 4% fall from 2002
Pedal cyclists: 114 deaths - a 12% drop
Those figures suggest that the rise in 4x4's has made no change to the pedestrian death rate!
Amazing how they make the arguement bend their way.
A 4x4 response.
Land Rover Discovery 3 has set new standards for 4x4 fuel consumption with the new TDV6. Although powerful (190bhp) it will still return 30mpg compared to a Ford Mondeo 2.5V6 (168bhp) which only manages 25mpg. Carrying 7 people in comfort compared to a rather tight 5 in the Mondeo.
This equates to 4.3mpg per passenger compared to the mondeo's 5mpg per passenger.
Not to mention that in the Discovery 3 you are 4 x less likely to be killed in an accident than in the mondeo adding to road safety. As the majority of the large 4x4's end up carrying children to and from school it has had a significant impact on the number of children killed in accidents, a reduction of 4% from the previous year. Although the chances of injury or death is higher if hit by a 4x4 vehicle due to it's size there has been no rise in the number of deaths of pedestrians from the previous year despite an increase of 150,000 more 4x4's on british roads! This can only suggest that 4x4 drivers drive more safely than your average driver (or there would have been a rise of 0.7%) . With the fact that 4x4's are slower than your average saloon, high speeds are not as easily achievable and its a fact that 'Speed Kills'
7 seats and the ability to go off road are just the added bonus of these wonderfully versatile vehicles, thumbs up to the new model 4x4's and especially the Disco 3.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=1208
From the above site:
In 2004, 671 pedestrians were killed in road accidents in Great Britain. This was 21 per cent of all deaths from road accidents, the lowest total for over 40 years.
The total number of deaths in road accidents fell by 8 per cent to 3,221 in 2004 from 3,508 in 2003.
The total number of road casualties of all severities fell by 3 per cent between 2003 and 2004 to approximately 281,000. This compares with an annual average of approximately 320,000 for the years 1994-98 and 324,000 in 1984.
The decline in the casualty rate, which takes into account the volume of traffic on the roads, has been much steeper. In 1964 there were 240 casualties per 100 million vehicle kilometres. By 2004 this had declined to 56 per 100 million vehicle kilometres.
The United Kingdom has a very good record for road safety compared with most other EU countries. In 2003 it had one of the lowest road death rates in the EU, at 6.14 per 100,000 population. The UK rate was also lower than the rates for other industrialised nations such as Japan (6.96 per 100,000 population), and substantially lower than that of Australia (8.15) and the United States (14.66).
The above is all based on fact!!
How can this be with so many 4x4's on the road????
If only we all got the chance to bend it like beckham, so to speak..
Cheers Paul 2006 TDV6 S Auto, Buckingham Blue, for the wife and kids.
2013 BMW 535d M sport touring.
Last edited by paul on 23rd Jun 2006 1:41 pm. Edited 1 time in total
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| 23rd Jun 2006 1:35 pm |
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Gareth
Site Moderator
Member Since: 07 Dec 2004
Location: Bramhall
Posts: 26714
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Excellent! come on guys MORE 8)
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| 23rd Jun 2006 1:35 pm |
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Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
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Whilst I agree with all of the sentiments on here, my opinion is torn. I try not to travel to London, unless I have to and never by road, but you have to admit the 4x4s are a bit of a plague in our capital.
However, I feel a bit miffed to be targeted for driving a Chelsea tractor, when I live out in Wiltshire. My journey to work contains the grand total of 500yds of A-road, the rest is pure country B-roads. I carry a load of work kit during the week and my family at weekends. I bought a diesel D3 because I need the 7-seats, the space and a 4 wheel drive system; not because I wish to squash small children. We are not adverse to city cars either; a 3 cylinder diesel Audi A2 is testimony to that.
The financially well endowed will buy whatever fashion statement they choose, as they have the means to rise above any additional tax or punitive measure. Buying a second-hand D3 was a major investment for me, but I look forward to being hit in the crossfire as we pander to popularist token gestures.
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| 23rd Jun 2006 1:41 pm |
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