Member Since: 16 Jan 2012
Location: South Yorkshire
Posts: 872
18th Feb 2014 7:41 pm
alex_pescaru
Member Since: 19 Dec 2010
Location: RO
Posts: 270
BBS SPY wrote:
What we have learned, understood and found a way to overcome is of course not something we would freely divulge that our competion would once again freely benefit from for obvious reasons.
But this will be freely incorporated into all future updates to all our products.
You almost gave me the reason of taking one device with the current "dumb" level of software and compare it with the "next generation" firmware to see what's so special about this flashing process...
Kidding....
Although...
18th Feb 2014 8:26 pm
SteveMfr Site Sponsor
Member Since: 11 Jan 2011
Location: Strasbourg
Posts: 200
Hi Everyone, Hi Colin,
After a bit of deliberation we have decided to post here. No one should not have to be afraid when flashing an ECU - not a dealer and def not a private individual. Stchris, glad to see your Disco back on its wheels - and good job. Your wiring to the fuses to allow rapid switching was key to solving your problem.
In defense of BBS with issues such as this: they - as we - are a small company with a highly complex product. Yet neither of us has the resources of a Microsoft or Apple to weed out every last bug or glitch (which not even they manage to do).
We decided long ago that the only way to rectify this is by providing unparalleled customer support. We take every complaint and every issue seriously till we know what the cause was and how to solve the problem. This has cost evenings and weekends, but it is necessary in our opinion.
And therein lies our critique of BBS. Colin, in the other thread you stated (more or less): "the BCM is dead. Don't shoot the messenger (diagnostic system) for telling you so." In this thread you had stchris apologizing for mentioning the IIDTool - you also asked if he believed another diagnostic system could possibly be more capable than yours. In this case it could and was. Stchris would have rectified his problem in minutes with an IIDTool. As OceanDriven did. Yes, 2 different BBS products were involved in a failed re-flash of a BCM, but both had a similar flashing procedure - which did not address the issues created by low voltage. You need not keep any secrets. We knew of the solution before you recognized the problem. (See technical explanation in the next post)
I don't mean for any of this to sound too harsh - sorry if it comes across this way.
Member Since: 11 Jan 2011
Location: Strasbourg
Posts: 200
Ok, now for the long, technical bit. Please skip unless truly interested.
The following is from Christian here at GAP Diagnostic:
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We think it's our responsibility as a diagnostic tool manufacturer to provide a recovery solution for reflashing processes without users having to master a "fine art".
When we released BCM reflashing capability in IIDTool to hundreds of users back in August, 5 users had a failed BCM reflash, 4 of them recovered with a hard reset but for 1 nothing worked. The fuse trick from the LR TSB alone did not do the trick either. We successfully reproduce the problem, found a solution and recovered the BCM. We also paid for his rear latches (see below for why) because at that time, we lacked a recovery method and proper warning to protect those latches. We then removed the BCM reflash from the IIDTool and continue to study the prob until we were sure two month later to have the correct warning and recovery method. Now when you reflash the BCM with an IIDTool, the tool tells the user to prepare by removing fuses 15 and 16 if the reflash fails to protect rear latches.
So what should be the biggest consequences of not using a good power supply during reflash? It should not be more than a bit of lost time to properly charge the battery and restart the process. At the very worst, you don't know what to do and contact us. Then it can take a little longer for us to respond and help depending when the request is sent. The consequences should never be the replacement of the ECU. If we encounter a ECU that is so fragile that no recovery is possible, we will not offer reflash for it.
We really hope this will establish the right balance of risk involved in reflashing ECU. It's even more important for the Nanocom because that tool offer reflashing for more ECU than IIDTool. (But not for long)
Now for the BCM...
The problem is relatively simple. Reflash failed for whatever reason, so the firmware is partially loaded into memory. After 2 seconds of programming inactivity, the PBL/SBL starts the partially loaded firmware and it crashes/freezes.
(In that state, some of its output can hold power to items like lights and actuators. The rear latches are made with very tiny electric motors and they cannot be continuously powered, they start burning after a few seconds.)
Think of windows PC with a corrupt system file, it boots for a couple of seconds, then goes to a blue screen. All you can do is a reset, sometimes CTRL-ALT-DEL works, sometimes not. The BCM is at this blue screen and no communication with it is possible. The only thing you can do is remove power to restart it, hence the fuse 15 & 16 removal/reinstall. When you do this, the primary bootloader always takes control and starts the partially loaded firmware and crash occurs again. Depending how many bytes of the firmware was loaded, the time between when the fuse is replaced and the crash is variable, from less than a second to many seconds. It's when the time window is tiny that it's difficult to recover.
Chris (stchris) you were very bright by routing wires from the fuses to be able to push the nanocom button very quickly after resetting the BCM. You succeeded in reviving the BCM. This would have worked first shot if the Nanocom process would not had a pause. When the reboot is done, the tool needs to switch the BCM in programming and start the process immediately. For example, if you ask "Are you there?" and then wait 2 seconds, the bootloader restarts the firmware and it crashes again. The IIDTool recovery method is simply done by continually querying the BCM, once it responds, the process is immediately started and BCM is kept in programming all the way to the end. So you don't have to route wires, the button is already pressed, you remove the fuses and reinstall, the process is started automatically as soon as BCM responds.
I am pleased to see that the people we Land Rover owners rely on and need keep up with the forums. We owners really need you. I also think it will not be too long however before your primary customer is going to be the dealer techs.
They are also going to need you as their bosses who do not understand, or worse, do not want to understand will continue not to support their techs with purchase of the factory tools that are tougher to operate than anything you guys are currently making. If there is some voice that says your products are is less than perfect, let those who speak the loudest use the factory recommended stuff with the factory support.
I really regard my dealer as typical. The techs there are good, some are even Land Rover fanatics, but the guys who sign their pay cheques and buy the equipment are at best, business people. Minimize expense and maximize income are what they best understand.
As such, it is only a matter of time until they will be telling their techs to quit complaining, and as they do with their Snap On sockets etc, go buy their own computers and solve their own problems.
Once that happens, the guy with the equipment that solves the most problems and creates the fewest fusses will then have the problem of deciding if to keep up with demand, he is going to farm out manufacturing of his equipment to the far East so it can be cloned and he continues to struggle.
Life is a battle, but the enemy is not each other.2005 LR3 HSE 4.4L AJ-V8 petrol; Traxide Dual Battery; PIAA 2500K Yellow Ion H11 Fog Light bulbs; CounterAct LT-2 Capacitive Corrosion control; LLumar AIR80 Blue clear Infra Red blocking side window film; Liftgate manual release; Schrader Valve "air in" mod to OEM air suspension reservoir tank; Akebono ceramic pads; OEM solid vented discs; LR4 design hitch receiver; Wiggs D4 MOST bluetooth module; Clock on the Dash; 3 Flash signal light mod; Backup Camera; 2015/16 Nav Data update.
19th Feb 2014 12:53 am
oceandriven
Member Since: 01 Dec 2013
Location: Cape Town
Posts: 34
A great conclusion!
stchris: Fantastic!! I'm glad you got your vehicle up and running again. After my similar experience I was pretty confident you'd be able to come right eventually. Really happy it's all sorted and worked out in the end !
BBS:
I'm glad you guys stepped up to the plate and found a solution here. stchris has already admitted to his error and eaten humble pie. I was in the same boat and shot from the hip too quickly and paid the price.
I'm very happy to hear you'll be adding warnings for us shoot from the hip types. I remember my thought process pretty well leading up to my first flashing attempt: I read all the help file instructions along with the potential flashing failure and how a hard reset usually helps. I read that a BCU took 2.5mins to flash and a Satnav takes about an hour. Right, 2.5mins - my battery will last that long for sure(even if I have to retry a few times). How very wrong I was. Perhaps I may make one further suggestion and say during purchasing/checkout procedure that you suggest a high amp power supply will be needed for use of the tool beyond regular code reading. This will go a long way to enforcing the fact that this is a serious requirement.
BBS, I appreciate that you guys are new to this error and it took some R&D to get the same error reproduced and a fix found. Please don't take this the wrong way but I did feel quite abandoned, ultimately, after I bricked my vehicle and lost a lot of confidence towards attempting similar tasks in the future for fear of being left in the same position. I further appreciate that we play in a dark grey area when us "amateurs" or "home users" attempt this kind of reflash but the attraction to being able to do these tasks is what drove me to buy your tool over a simple fault reader in the first place. Once again, I'm really happy to see you guys stepped up and ultimately a fix has been found.
I am extremely thankful and appreciative of the support given to me by Gap (Steve, Patrick, Christian and the guys) even though I was not using their tool when I caused the failure, they still went above and beyond to assist me getting my vehicle back on the road.
Also, this forum and it's members were of incredible support and advice to both myself and stchris to which I am also eternally grateful. This very support makes me extremely happy to be a member of the Land Rover family and knowing that whenever I'm stuck under my vehicle, covered in oil, there is almost always someone to give some advice or a helping hand.
I really hope these type of resolutions and developments continue. BBS and Gap, you guys have a great healthy level of competition which is driving you guys to produce fantastic equipment. Keep it up, guys!
19th Feb 2014 11:58 am
alex_pescaru
Member Since: 19 Dec 2010
Location: RO
Posts: 270
oceandriven, very nice and well spoken.
Now, sorry for saying this, and I don't want to be patronizing, but if the timings were indeed the problem, maybe a thorough read of ISO15765-3 standard will be beneficial to all. A good design will translate in a good product that will give the users the needed peace of mind.
1. Any ECU is giving all the information needed for timings, in its response, when you use the Diagnostic Session Control service (0x10). (page 42)
2. Any session, other than the default one, should be kept alive with tester present functional addressing at intervals not more than 4 seconds. Recommended is 2 seconds. (page 6)
3. Any ECU will drop the programming session (or any other session besides the default one) after 5 seconds of no communication. (page 6)
4. Also some interesting facts about timings are on page 4 and 5. In fact all chapter 6 is interesting from this point of view.
ALL ECUs that I've seen until now complies with the above. And this because ISO15765-3 is a must when designing these types of ECUs.
If you follow the ISO rules, you wont have any problems when flashing any ECU. In the end this is the purpose of the standard.
Alex, speaking as someone who has not experience of this type of thing, it is interesting that you mention 2 seconds as the recommended re-transmission time and a 5 second time for the ECU to assume no further communications (programming in this case) is to take place.
But from reading Chris's post (Via Steve) that the BCM is rebooting after 2seconds, which suggests to me that the ECU is not following the ISO standard?
I will also say that it is refreshing to see a post from Gap effectively giving the answer to the problem - something which BBS has already stated he wouldn't do, as I read it for commercial advantage.Mark.
2006, D3 SE Auto - gone but not forgotten.
2014 BMW 530d M Sport Tourer.
1977 Triumph Spitfire 1500
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Disco Picture Website Here
19th Feb 2014 2:26 pm
alex_pescaru
Member Since: 19 Dec 2010
Location: RO
Posts: 270
Indeed a big for GAP from this point of view.
From what I've know (but one can't know all ECUs in the world ), as I've said, ALL (CAN) ECUs comply with this standard. The most rigorous ones, that comply to the millisecond with specifications, are the powertrain ones. Engine and gearbox.
Additionally, at cold boot, the primary bootloader makes a checksum/CRC over the program area and, if it fails - following an incomplete flash, for example -, it stays there in the primary bootloader.
This primary bootloader has very limited functionality (just several services) and therefore it seems that the ECU is frozen.
The primary bootloader is a generic one for the main controller. It initializes only the internal flashing and communication modules. It wont initialize any I/O ports and therefore problems could arise from false/unintentional energized relays, pumps, motors, etc.
19th Feb 2014 3:09 pm
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
This an exceptional thread!
Keep it up.
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
Member Since: 15 Jun 2007
Location: Sunny Cyprus
Posts: 3054
Hiya Oceandriven
Quote:
I did feel quite abandoned,
I really must apologize to you for leaving you feeling that way and am by no means incapable of eating some humble pie myself, as and when required
I made my comment on your thread almost four weeks ago when all i then knew was that after many years of providing diagnostic equipment that had been used to reflash all ECU's including the BCU/CJB we had not had one single reported case of what you had suddenly encountered.
I just hope you can forgive me for then mistakenly believing your problem lay in your hardware
However once we knew that this was not some isolated incident, i think most will agree that we here at BBS then gave it all due and proper attention and I / we here at BBS have certainly gone through quite a learning curve since then and have done as much as anyone could expect to the point of a final fix and resolution to this particular BCU/CJB flashing problem.
I may well not be perfect, but i first joined this forum many years ago when there was absolutely no diagnostic capabilty for any Land Rover Owners beyond the pathetic dealer offerings and now known limited capability. It was once regarded as impossible to modify a vehicles settings until I personally introduced the acronym and term CCF, provided the capability to edit it and all the power and capability it now represents and is an everyday element many seek to copy.
Re Flashing all LR ECU's as you wished was also something we alone initially provided the capability to do.
All i can say further is to watch this space
ATB
Colin
19th Feb 2014 9:17 pm
SteveMfr Site Sponsor
Member Since: 11 Jan 2011
Location: Strasbourg
Posts: 200
Hi Colin,
I have to admit, I am pleasantly surprised! My hat is off to ya.
We do have to add one last thing: we use the term 'Car Configuration File' and the acronym CCF too. We'd never have done anything like this if this term would not have been part of IDS/LR terminology.
From LR tech training literature
Lesson 2 – Data Network Architectures - Car Configuration Files (CCF)
And a screenshot of some files in an XML folder in IDS/SDD:
Click image to enlarge
Now maybe we can all do a group hug and get back to talking about LRs.
Steve www.gap-diagnostic.com
Last edited by SteveMfr on 21st Feb 2014 8:38 am. Edited 2 times in total
19th Feb 2014 10:09 pm
alex_pescaru
Member Since: 19 Dec 2010
Location: RO
Posts: 270
BBS SPY wrote:
many years ago when there was absolutely no diagnostic capabilty for any Land Rover Owners beyond the pathetic dealer offerings and now known limited capability.
Let's all be honest and recognize that from that "pathetic" piece of software, named IDS/SDD, we all inspired and more or less reverse engineered it in order to make our diagnostic/flashing tools.
That "limited capability", how you named it, was there for a reason. In order to not give dealers and users skipped heartbeats.
Once we learned how the process is done, we eliminated those "limits" and fully enjoyed the options.
But even then it seems that we didn't fully understand some issues and, voila, threads like this one appear.
In the end, we all know the historic phrase: One who wins without problem it is just VICTORY, but one who wins with lot of troubles, that is HISTORY.
LE: Somebody should cut a little from the "The best, the first, the biggest, the most capable, the undisputed, the easiest, the only one, etc..." It's getting a little old and boring....
LE2: Let's see now who's feeling somebody....
19th Feb 2014 11:10 pm
Valhalla
Member Since: 23 Oct 2011
Location: Isle of Skye
Posts: 124
Indeed, the CCF acronym was used within the LR electrical architecture discussions for the T5 platform way back in its earliest days, inspired through internal toolsets such as ASL - the internal LR and Jag Engineers would not bother to waste time with the dealer tools. This itself relates to the collaborative work done with Volvo and Ford.
The discussions above are inspirational to an independant diagnostic Engineer such as myself, and I cannot be the only one to feel sure that my business will be going your way/s in the very near future, as this is the sort of confidence you need when you are working on (other peoples) expensive transport, not the usual "flannel" from salesmen.
Irrespective of tool, I have never felt happy flashing anything on any JLR product. It's what keeps me safe, and gets the car out the door.
20th Feb 2014 1:20 am
Robbie
Member Since: 05 Feb 2006
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 17932
BBS SPY wrote:
It was once regarded as impossible to modify a vehicles settings until I personally introduced the acronym and term CCF….
Land Rover - Turning Drivers into Mechanics Since 1948
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